[MarvelousToons]

According to canon, and your canon knowledge, which supersedes the other, the Abstract Entities, or the Infinity Gems?

So... in some conversation, I am told that the Infinity Gems are greater as they created each iteration of the Multiverse, from the very first incarnation, the First Firmament. The Infinity Gems are the remnants of Nemesis, the One Above All of the First Cosmos. With that, cosmic beings and even the Abstract Entities are all descendants of the Infinity Gems.

Now... others stated that the Infinity Gems are weaker in power compared to the Abstract Entities, for they are supposedly only of universal scale power, whereas the Abstracts are multiversal (I've not seen full proof of that. The Phoenix for example is particular to its designated universe. Even the "great" feat of the White Phoenix, she ONLY affected the universe that Jean Grey came from, and only performed a UNIVERSAL level feat, not multiversal level feat).

THEN there is the discussion that the reason the Infinity Gems may not appear more powerful than the Abstract Entities, is due to their wielder. Thanos for example, cannot utilize the Infinity Gems at their full potential, thus he can only affect things on a universal level. Only an entity on Nemesis' level can access the full power of the Gems, causing Multiversal/Omniversal affect...

Is any of that true?

[PhoenixRising]

I think it all depends on who happens to be writing the story, Marvelous Toons. I remember once that the Cosmic Cubes were supposed to be all powerful. And of course, the Living Tribunal is supposed to be the ambassador of the creator of the entire multiverse, and it was implied that he could defeat whomever had the Infinity Gauntlet.

[MarvelousToons]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) I think it all depends on who happens to be writing the story, Marvelous Toons. I remember once that the Cosmic Cubes were supposed to be all powerful. And of course, the Living Tribunal is supposed to be the ambassador of the creator of the entire multiverse, and it was implied that he could defeat whomever had the Infinity Gauntlet.

It honestly would work to my favor if the Infinity Gems were multiversal in power. I did find some threads from other forums today with those arguing which is more powerful, Phoenix or the Infinity Gems. Friends' suggestions aside, I did like some of the information proposed concerning the IG. In the all in all, it appears that the IG are more powerful than the Abstract Entities, with only TOAA, LT, Fulcrum prolly, and the Beyonders having greater power.

What I considered presenting, is the IG being multiversal in true form, but it requiring a powerful, beyond mortal wielder of gems, to attain their omnipotent potential. The Infinity Gauntlet would be insufficient as a tool to utilize all gems on a scale beyond universal.

I do want to employ Nemesis like, way down the line; she would perfectly tie in the new Phoenix Saga with the insane beyond cosmos idea I came up with. Also, a seventh IG is revealed (not the Ego Gem, that was dumb), and it plays a tedious role where Thanos and "The Phoenix" is concerned.

The Cosmic Cubes, for my proposal, would be similar to Chaos Emeralds in Sonic; nigh-limitless centers of various forms of power, which can be used to manipulate respective forms of existence

[PhoenixRising]

I think in the comics the Gems are supposed to be more powerful than the Phoenix Force. Galactus is also supposed to be more powerful than the Phoenix Force. Remember there's also the Power Cosmic, remember? And then there's The Beyonder. I think the Celestials are also more powerful. But the Infinity Gems were able to bring Galactus, the Celestials, and every other cosmic deity(Eon, Lord Chaos and Master Order, The Stranger) to their knees, including Eternity himself. But I do think that the Living Tribunal overrides all of that.

Who is Nemesis? I don't know that one.

[MarvelousToons]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) I think in the comics the Gems are supposed to be more powerful than the Phoenix Force. Galactus is also supposed to be more powerful than the Phoenix Force. Remember there's also the Power Cosmic, remember? And then there's The Beyonder. I think the Celestials are also more powerful. But the Infinity Gems were able to bring Galactus, the Celestials, and every other cosmic deity(Eon, Lord Chaos and Master Order, The Stranger) to their knees, including Eternity himself. But I do think that the Living Tribunal overrides all of that. Who is Nemesis? I don't know that one.

Huh... there's incredible debate between Marvel fans and Phoenix fanboys, over which is more powerful. I look at the accomplishments of characters in question, and that's how I gauge an idea of power levels. The IG from what I've seen, definitely is of greater feats than the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force at its peak as "White Phoenix", had trouble doing what Thanos could with IG.

Yes, the Power Cosmic I always felt was about as powerful as the Phoenix Force. The Beyonder, pre-retcon and after retcon, is more powerful than the Phoenix. The Celestials might be less powerful, not sure. But the IG as I probe deeper and deeper, definitely seem to out rank most cosmic beings, aside from Beyonder, Fulcrum, TOAA and the like.

Ooooh who's Nemesis? Nemesis is the "Infinity Being", the creator being that... according to some, was the original incarnation of TOAA. She brought about The First Firmament, the very first incarnation of the cosmos/omniverse to exist. After her creations went rogue, I think she destroyed the cosmos, and out of anguish, separated herself into the Infinity Gems, somewhat committing suicide, not wanting to... exist in this state of loneliness(?)

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nemes..._(First_Cosmos)

Marvel fans from Facebook told me this wiki isn't entirely accurate. But stated that Nemesis IS the original TOAA (making the current TOAA a reincarnation-ish???)

Nemesis would be dubbed the TOAA of the first cosmos (as in canon) for the script I'm writing; and her story will tie in, way down the line, like several arcs down, with the plight of the Phoenix Force and the Cosmic Rival. The truth about the Cosmic Rival has to do with Nemesis, and sends chills down all cosmic beings... It drives the Phoenix to permanently kill the Cosmic Rival AND its host, in an effort to escape Destiny...

[PhoenixRising]

Thanks for that link, MarvlousToons. I remember the reference to the entity that created the Infinity Gems after killing itself out of loneliness, but now it appears to have taken on a female form, huh? But again, the Living Tribunal supposedly represents a power even above her that created all of the universes.

Yeah, the first cosmic power I remember ever reading about was The Power Cosmic, mostly because nearly every freaking cosmic being I read about had it. Galactus, Silver Surfer, Korvac, Firelord, etc. It does seem to be mostly related to Galactus, although I think Eon and The Stranger may also possess. it.

Well, the Celestials were the first beings created at the dawn of the universe. They came into existence at the same time as the Infinity Gems, so I'm pretty sure they're right up there with Galactus and The Beyonder. That's why the Eternals called them "Space Gods."

But who is the current TOAA? And what does TOAA mean?

[MarvelousToons]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Thanks for that link, MarvlousToons. I remember the reference to the entity that created the Infinity Gems after killing itself out of loneliness, but now it appears to have taken on a female form, huh? But again, the Living Tribunal supposedly represents a power even above her that created all of the universes. Yeah, the first cosmic power I remember ever reading about was The Power Cosmic, mostly because nearly every freaking cosmic being I read about had it. Galactus, Silver Surfer, Korvac, Firelord, etc. It does seem to be mostly related to Galactus, although I think Eon and The Stranger may also possess. it. Well, the Celestials were the first beings created at the dawn of the universe. They came into existence at the same time as the Infinity Gems, so I'm pretty sure they're right up there with Galactus and The Beyonder. That's why the Eternals called them "Space Gods." But who is the current TOAA? And what does TOAA mean?

That link according to some fans has incomplete and some incorrect info, and is more a "guide" than complete facts. I don't know until I read all this **** myself, and try to piece together what the truth is. Prolly run into a wall, as everything is inconsistent on the count of retcons and **** -_-

Nemesis is a tricky one... on one account, or a few that was shared with me, Nemesis predated the current "The One Above All" (TOAA), and created the First Firmament, or the first manifestation of the Omniverse/Multiverse. With that being the case, she would have been older and higher ranking of Living Tribunal. Like I said, I need to read these comics myself and determine what's what. Nemesis is prolly higher in rank of the LT, due to being a multiversal, creator like entity... but after cosmic suicide and becoming the Infinity Gems, the IGs would degrade in power, to me, being below the One, Living Tribunal and prolly the Beyonder. However, its above all other cosmic entities, including the Abstract Entities and the Celestials.

I like the Power Cosmic better than the Phoenix Force, though I wish I could love the Phoenix (I love Dragons and Phoenixes, sad they ****ed it up). The Power Cosmic, is written to be more grounded and dare I say "accurate" than how the Phoenix operates, in junction with teachings from mysticism. The Power Cosmic is simply limitless-ish cosmic energy, that many beings have tapped into. Regardless of what kind of entity they are, alignment with good and evil, it just makes better sense.

The Phoenix being bound by psychics, and at that Jean Grey as if she's the ONLY entity that can master it to its fullest, is the DUMBEST ****ing thing ever. How can the Phoenix be the "embodiment of life" (something I may retcon) yet its so limited on what life forms can attain its power? And at that, you mean only ONE human, is the true embodiment of said all powerful cosmic force? Dumbest thing ever -_- The Phoenix should have been like the Force in Star Wars. Luke nor Anakin were the "one true Force wielders", but were extremely powerful. But that didn't mean they were the ONLY ones to master it fully.

TOAA is a forum acronym for "The One Above All". The theory is the current "One Above All" (who appears male, but isn't--ish???) is the spiritual reincarnation of Nemesis (despite appearing female... isn't-ish either???), but is still its own entity at the same time... true or false, beats me, and I'm at a point of writing my own ideas and say "screw it" with canon LOL

[sum1]

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Are we confusing you, sum1? Sorry.


Well, MarvelousToons, the problem with Marvel's cosmic mythology is that a lot of it is dependent on what the writers decide. A lot of the cosmic mythology began with Jack Kirby when he first began developing Galactus, The Silver Surfer, The Eternals, and the Celestials, although I think Stan Lee also had a hand in creating them. Jim Starlin really expanded things in the 1970s, though, with Thanos, the Infinity Gems, and all that stuff. And you're right about The Power Cosmic. It is kind of like The Force when you think about it. "It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together." Also, the Beyonder turned out to be an unfinished Cosmic Cube, although I don't know if they retconned that at all. Like I said, the cosmic mythology gets a bit convoluted with all the various retcons that happen. Your explanation for Nemesis, for example, all depends on when she was written and what Marvel chooses to do with her. They recently just made Galactus the herald of some other deity, which is stupid as hell. So I honestly no longer know what the hell Marvel is doing with their cosmic mythology. As for the Celestials, I think Thanos said they were on the same level as Galactus, beings of pure energy who do not have any distinct corporeal, physical form, and wear those giant armored space suits to cover their real appearance. You know, real H.P. Lovecraft stuff, like if you see a Celestial in their natural form you'll go mad or die or something. I think the Celestials are supposed to be beings born purely from the creation of the universe and are therefore more powerful than pretty much anyone.

Ohh, The One Above All! Thanks. I probably should've guessed that.

[MarvelousToons]

Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

LOL I'm really weird, and love discussing weird **** from time to time, so excuse me for weirding you out

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Are we confusing you, sum1? Sorry. Well, MarvelousToons, the problem with Marvel's cosmic mythology is that a lot of it is dependent on what the writers decide. A lot of the cosmic mythology began with Jack Kirby when he first began developing Galactus, The Silver Surfer, The Eternals, and the Celestials, although I think Stan Lee also had a hand in creating them. Jim Starlin really expanded things in the 1970s, though, with Thanos, the Infinity Gems, and all that stuff. And you're right about The Power Cosmic. It is kind of like The Force when you think about it. "It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together." Also, the Beyonder turned out to be an unfinished Cosmic Cube, although I don't know if they retconned that at all. Like I said, the cosmic mythology gets a bit convoluted with all the various retcons that happen. Your explanation for Nemesis, for example, all depends on when she was written and what Marvel chooses to do with her. They recently just made Galactus the herald of some other deity, which is stupid as hell. So I honestly no longer know what the hell Marvel is doing with their cosmic mythology. As for the Celestials, I think Thanos said they were on the same level as Galactus, beings of pure energy who do not have any distinct corporeal, physical form, and wear those giant armored space suits to cover their real appearance. You know, real H.P. Lovecraft stuff, like if you see a Celestial in their natural form you'll go mad or die or something. I think the Celestials are supposed to be beings born purely from the creation of the universe and are therefore more powerful than pretty much anyone. Ohh, The One Above All! Thanks. I probably should've guessed that.

Well due to the fog of writers' creative static, creating so many loopholes, retcons, rewrites and ****, it makes me wanna read a simple wiki, so I'd have enough of an idea to write according to what I'd want. That thing about Beyonder being an unfinished cosmic cube is one of the weirdest things ever, like whut?

A consensus should have been established to some degree with the cosmology, that way any new writer coming in, would have an idea of how all this **** works.

Galactus became ****ing Franklin Richards' herald like... Franklin Richards is almost the male version of Jean Grey (almost, not quite as bad). You talk about being overpowered to the point of annoyance First of all, leave Galactus alone, don't **** him up like you've done so many other things. Secondly, IF you were to do something stupid like that with him, then using another Cosmic Being, or even someone with exceptional Power Cosmic manip, to take him on like that wouldn't be as jarring as Franklin.

I'm gonna prolly just come up with a ranking, as I do feel comfortable with my Marvel cosmic knowledge to do so... and just, go from there. TO ME, I think making the Infinity Gems right below Living Tribunal and One Above All, is closest to accurate, and is best.

To me, I'd say there's One Above All, LT, the Beyonders, the Infinity Gems, then in the same echelon, put one side the Abstract Entities (rewrite their narrative a bit), then Galactus and other Cosmic Beings, then the Celestials, and everything else after that... something like that

[PhoenixRising]

Well, let me just say that reading the wiki about the cosmic entities from the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, tends to cut right through the thick fog. Marvel pretty much held on to that canon right up until the 21st century, that's when things started going haywaire. The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe printed in the 1980s is what I always considered canon, even if it's been retconned.

Franklin Richards? That's who that guy is? They made this guy look like some kind of cosmic supervillain, and it's actually Franklin all the time? But this guy looks totally different, with long dark hair and grayish skin... oh well, this reminds me of Adam Warlock and The Magus, which I didn't like either.

[MarvelousToons]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post) Well, let me just say that reading the wiki about the cosmic entities from the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, tends to cut right through the thick fog. Marvel pretty much held on to that canon right up until the 21st century, that's when things started going haywaire. The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe printed in the 1980s is what I always considered canon, even if it's been retconned. Franklin Richards? That's who that guy is? They made this guy look like some kind of cosmic supervillain, and it's actually Franklin all the time? But this guy looks totally different, with long dark hair and grayish skin... oh well, this reminds me of Adam Warlock and The Magus, which I didn't like either.

Now... I'm not sure if we're talking about the same dude, but I know in recent comics, there's a run of which Franklin turns Galactus... ****ING Galactus into HIS herald like for what?! What does Franklin need with a herald?! Like I said about Franklin R., he's the male version of Jean Grey, and nigh-equally as annoying Like... I know this is comic book stuff but... that's just disrespectful imo to do that to Galactus...

I'm prolly gonna revisit some of the Silver Surfer runs, and just look through the wiki for hints of which runs to glean from. Oh the Handbook from 1980s, okay

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by MarvelousToons (View Post) Now... I'm not sure if we're talking about the same dude, but I know in recent comics, there's a run of which Franklin turns Galactus... ****ING Galactus into HIS herald like for what?! What does Franklin need with a herald?! Like I said about Franklin R., he's the male version of Jean Grey, and nigh-equally as annoying Like... I know this is comic book stuff but... that's just disrespectful imo to do that to Galactus... I'm prolly gonna revisit some of the Silver Surfer runs, and just look through the wiki for hints of which runs to glean from. Oh the Handbook from 1980s, okay

I heard that some godlike deity made Galactus his herald, but I didn't know it was Franklin. This dude wasn't some blonde-haired kid, this was a grown adult with long dark hair, so if this was Franklin it sure didn't look like him. And you're right, it is disrespectful to Galactus, but this is 21st century Marvel. They're crapping on all of their characters now.