News & Politics - Same-Sex Rights Discussion #9 ~ Should Sochi Olympics Be Boycotted?

**sunnykerr** · 05-17-2013, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by Nick, on the thread I had to close just now:

Quote:

France least tolerant country in Western Europe of homosexuals

World Values Survey: France is the least tolerant country in Western Europe, survey finds, despite moves to sign into law a gay marriage bill.

The information which has been monitoring the political and moral attitudes of various countries for more than two decades, shows that countries with more economic freedom have higher degrees of tolerance.

France was the least tolerant country in Western Europe, with 28.8 per cent of the population responding that they would not want a homosexual neighbour. This contrasts with 3.6 per cent of Swedish people, 7.4 per cent of Spaniards and 11.1 per cent of Swiss. 16.8 per cent of British people would not want a homosexual neighbour.

There is a clear divide across the iron curtain, with homophobia much more common in Russia and Ukraine, while Serbia and Moldova were even less tolerant than majority Muslim Indonesia. Georgia, was the third most homophobic country surveyed, with 92.6 per cent of the population unhappy with the idea of a homosexual neighbour.

Muslim countries were among the most homophobic, with 19 out of 20 Jordanians unwilling to live near to homosexuals. Iran was close behind, with 93.2 per cent of the population intolerant. Despite their Catholic heritage, liberal attitudes predominate in Latin America, with Uruguay, Argentina and Guatemala more tolerant than some Western countries. Colombia was an outlier, with 45.9 per cent of the population unwilling to have a homosexual neighbour.

Therese Nilsson and Niclas Berggren, whose paper "Does Economic Freedom Foster Tolerance" was published in economic journal Kyklos last month, believe that these results show the correlation between economic freedoms such as small government and stable monetary policy, and tolerance of those of a different race or sexuality. Their work found that tolerance of homosexuality is particularly strongly correlated with economic freedom.

"While homosexuals can hide their orientation, racial characteristics are usually not possible to hide. One way in which this could matter relates to interaction with others. Homosexuals can do business with others and leave a good impression without revealing their orientation. If they later reveal it, this may cause tolerance to increase. In contrast, in the case of race, the immediate identification of minority status may cause some people to assess others in accordance with prejudices, which may block interaction and a positive interaction effect."

They also believe that a stable monetary supply is particularly important in fostering tolerance of homosexuals. "It is not unreasonable to think that the link between monetary instability and intolerance is particularly relevant for the case of homosexuals, as they may be perceived as more well-off materially than others, which can cause jealousy. This perception may stem from homosexual celebrities or from a more conspicuous consumption pattern among homosexuals in general."

France least tolerant country in Western Europe of homosexuals - Telegraph

If you follow the link there is a world map which you can use to focus on on particular regions.

**sunnykerr** · 05-17-2013, 06:59 PM

I think it makes sense that economic freedom would be tied with tolerance.

When times are tough, we do have a tendency to turn on each other over the stupidest things.

I've never been to France, but I have friends who are from there and... I don't know, there's not a one among them who is even marginally homophobic.

So it goes to show that surveys can't always be trusted.

I do think the point about the correlation with financial freedom is a good one, though.

quaist · 05-18-2013, 01:27 AM

Tftnt, Sunny!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

I've never been to France, but I have friends who are from there and... I don't know, there's not a one among them who is even marginally homophobic.

So it goes to show that surveys can't always be trusted.

Of course this is not really to be taken completely serious, but one could also say that the more progressive ones tend to emigrate

I do agree, though, that such surveys need to be treated with caution -- however, 28 percent saying they do not want a homosexual neighbor in contrast to the other quoted percentages is quite a margin...

**sunnykerr** · 05-18-2013, 02:15 PM

It is quite the margin, but it all depends on how and where they asked the question, doesn't it?

Because if they called a whole lot of people mostly in conservative areas, and there are regions of France who are particularly well-known for that, then you get a 28% disparity.

I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just saying I could easily see how that could happen.

Avatar · 05-19-2013, 12:55 AM

One would assume they'd get a representative sample for the study, otherwise it'd be kinda useless.

And then there's this: Turkey axes Eurovision final broadcast over lesbian kiss - Independent.ie. Sigh.

quaist · 05-19-2013, 11:55 AM

Also, the article says that they have been monitoring public opinion for more than two decades, so chances are that they know their stuff

Avatar, thanks for posting that. I know that it's politically incorrect, but such incidents are exactly why I'm absolutely opposed to Turkey's joining the EU. They've made talking about the goings-on back in World War I, when the Young Turks murdered up to one million Armenians, a punishable offense. And then you have things like this. I'd say we have enough troubles already, dealing with the euro crisis. Ugh!

Nick HeyRee · 05-19-2013, 04:55 PM

Dan beat me to it.

I was watching Eurovision although not to see British success mind you. I might be wrong but i don't think this is the first time that there has been a lesbian kiss on the show, and i can't recall it being banned previously. Perhaps the political mood has become more hostile.

It is obviously rather daft, as banning the programme only highlights the kiss even more than would normally have been the case. People will now have gone out of their way to see it probably.

**sunnykerr** · 05-19-2013, 08:11 PM

Is Turkey the country where the president made some appalling statements about how Turkish women need can contribute to the political life of Turkey by giving birth to more Turkish sons?

Mind you, I also know that this is one of those country with a piss-poor record on religious and same-sex freedom (separately). I saw or I read something... a while ago... I remember talking about it on here. Basically, military service is mandatory in Turkey but you can get an exemption if you can prove you're gay (ie, with photographic evidence). Problem is, when you're looking for a job, the first thing they ask you is to show your military record.

Of course, none of this applies if you're a lowly woman, let alone (presumably) a lesbian.

quaist · 05-20-2013, 11:26 AM

Sunny, I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey's president were the one who made that statement. What you've mentioned about the exemption that gay men get from military service when providing 'illustrative material' is just repugnant... But totally along the lines of this TV ban.

Nick, that's quite a point you've made. A ban certainly does increase people's curiosity, and in times of Youtube and the like, video footage of the Eurovision Songcontest is easily accessible nonetheless. So that ban doesn't really make any sense

**sunnykerr** · 05-20-2013, 04:27 PM

I think a lot of whether it becomes a tease depends on what kind of access to information there is in Turkey. I'm not aware that there are controls like the ones you hear of in China and North Korea, but who knows?

The situation with LGBT rights in Turkey is ludicrous, though. I mean, no more ludicrous than in other parts of the world, I suppose. But freaking ludicrous.

There's something very odd about demanding photographic evidence to substantiate claims of being gay. I mean, obviously, there's an element of humiliation in it as well as of "dragging down" someone else with you, since presumably that proof would have to involve the presence of another person.

But there's the obvious aspect of providing a certain kind of sexual excitement to the person demanding to see those pictures, no?

Nick HeyRee · 05-20-2013, 06:55 PM

I'm not aware f any controls either, i wouldn't expect there to be any although that could be my misconception.

Having had a quick rad of LGBT rights in Turkey it appears to be primarily an atmosphere of stigma and laws depending on the locality designed to keep public displays of affection and LGBT activism out of the public eye. Very likely discrimination and hate crimes occur in less overt ways.

Still, the possibility same-sex marriage is at least in the political consciousness out there.

**sunnykerr** · 05-21-2013, 07:00 PM

Oh, I didn't mean to say there were controls of information in Turkey. Just that it occured to me that there might be. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something. I'm not at all saying there definitely are.

The possibility of same-sex marriage is definitely gaining ground, just perhaps not in Turkey as yet.

Not if their policies are in line with what their prime minister is saying about women needing to give birth to more Turk citizens and similar preposterous hetero-centric sentiments are dominant.

quaist · 05-22-2013, 11:51 AM

News from France again...

Quote:

France: dramatic suicide reignites same-sex marriage furore

The suicide of far-right French historian Dominique Venner has brought the spotlight back onto the divisive issue of same-sex marriage, recently legalised in France.

Venner, 78, took his life inside Notre-Dame cathedral on May 21, reportedly by shooting himself in front of the altar.

Earlier the same day, the award-winning essayist published a blog post savaging the legalisation of homosexual marriage.

Venner wrote: “I think I need to sacrifice myself to break the lethargy that overwhelms us” adding “spectacular and symbolic actions” were needed to wake up the French people.

Marine Le Pen of the far-right National Front party hailed the suicide as a “political act”.

The French Interior Minister Manuel Valls said: “Notre Dame is the cathedral of Paris, one of the capital’s and the country’s most beautiful monuments, so we realise how symbolic this event truly is.”

Valls said there were 1,500 people inside the cathedral, adding: “I can only imagine how shocking it was for those faithful, those tourists.”

The cathedral is visited by some 13 million people from around the world every year.

On the evening of the suicide, gay-rights supporters had gathered in Paris’ Place de la Bastille for a live music event to celebrate the legalisation of same-sex marriages in France.

Tuesday’s death comes less than a week after another unusual suicide in central Paris, when a man shot himself in front of a dozen schoolchildren at a private Catholic school in the French capital.

The cathedral’s rector said a few people had committed suicide by jumping from Notre Dame’s twin towers, but he had no knowledge of anyone ever committing suicide on the altar.

I really don't know what's more appalling... This 'ideologically' motivated suicide or Le Pen's reaction to it.

**sunnykerr** · 05-22-2013, 07:29 PM

^ I read about that. I didn't realize it was about same-sex marriage, though.

How preposterous. And Ms Le Pen is living up to her father's legacy with gusto, isn't she?

Mind you, you want appalling? I give you the Canadian Blood Services:

Quote:

Canada lifts ban on gay men donating blood; must be abstinent for 5 years

TORONTO -- Canada is lifting a nearly 30-year-old ban on gay men giving blood, though for the time being only those who are abstinent will be allowed to donate.

The new policy, which Canadian Blood Services hopes to have in place by mid-summer, will allow men to donate blood if they haven't had sex with another man for five years before the donation.

The agency understands that the length of this deferral won't satisfy all critics. But agency executive Dana Devine said this is the first step in what Canadian Blood Services hopes will be a continued effort to work out what is the best approach to incorporating gay men into the donation community.

"So the message to them today is to simply bear with us," Devine, vice-president of medical, scientific and research affairs at Canadian Blood Services, said in an interview.

"We are working toward attempting to make the opportunity for additional people to donate blood ... and we just aren't quite there yet for that group of people."

The policy change has been in the works for several years and has involved consultation with groups representing would-be donors as well as hemophiliacs who rely on blood transfusions and those who could be harmed if screening systems aren't adequate to keep pathogens out of the blood supply.

Health Canada gave approval to Canadian Blood Services and its Quebec equivalent, Hema-Quebec, on Wednesday.

The lifetime ban against donations by gay men was instituted in the mid 1980s by the Red Cross, which was then responsible for the blood supply system. The move was taken when it was realized that the alarming new disease AIDS, which was then untreatable, could be contracted through blood transfusions.

In fact, hundreds of Canadians were infected with HIV and-or hepatitis C in the era before tests to screen out contaminated blood were developed and adopted by the Red Cross. A Royal Commission, the Krever Inquiry, later determined the Red Cross had not moved quickly enough and recommended stripping it of authority for the blood system. It also called for compensation for people injured by tainted blood.

That history cast a long shadow over the work to lift the lifetime ban and explains the current go-slow approach.

Dr. Mark Wainberg, a McGill University HIV researcher and a former president of the International AIDS Society, welcomed the move.

"I think it is a step in the right direction regarding non-discrimination and stigmatization of gay men," Wainberg said via an email.

Devine said this step will help the blood agencies gather safety data that may later be used to open up blood donation to more gay men. Critics of the policy have argued that gay men who are in long-term monogamous relationships should be allowed to give blood if they wish.

The change announced Wednesday will open the door to men who may have had an experimental sexual encounter with another male when they were young, as well as men who were raped when they were boys, Devine said. The lifetime ban applied to any man who had had a sexual encounter with another man, encompassing as a result some men who did not live as gay men, she noted.

A number of other countries already allow gay men to give blood, and some use a shorter deferral period than Canada has settled on.

In Britain and Australia, gay men who haven't had sex with other men for at least a year are eligible to donate. In South Africa the deferral period is six months. But the United States still retains a lifetime ban.

Source

Three decades ago, they couldn't test for HIV. In an age of paranoia and prejudice, I can understand imposing this kind of a rule.

But we can test today.

I've had this conversation before and it was pointed out to me that gay men have a higher probability of having AIDS than other groups. Whatever. Fair enough.

A straight man who's been married and faithful to his wife for 20 years can still get AIDS. If his wife cheated on him and didn't use protection. If either one of them shared needles.

I find this restriction on gay men so arbitrary in this day and age that it makes me choke on my own bile. I'm not even kidding... exagerating, maybe, but not kidding.

It's ludicrous. If gay may were 100 times more likely to have AIDS, which they're not, this wouldn't be justified. We can freaking test now!

Avatar · 05-23-2013, 11:27 AM

I didn't think Norman Tebbit would be able to make a more asinine statement than that ridiculous 'cricket test', but lo and behold...


Fan Forum > Archived General Discussion > News & Politics > Same-Sex Rights Discussion #9 ~ Should Sochi Olympics Be Boycotted?