News & Politics - Capital Punishment Discussion Thread #2

**sunnykerr** · 01-17-2014, 07:26 PM

Time for a new thread.

We were discussing this story:

Quote:

Ohio killer takes almost 25 minutes to die from lethal injection

LUCASVILLE, Ohio -- A condemned man appeared to gasp several times and took an unusually long time to die -- almost 25 minutes -- in an execution carried out Thursday with a combination of drugs never before tried in the U.S.

Dennis McGuire's attorney Allen Bohnert called the convicted killer's death "a failed, agonizing experiment" and added: "The people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

An attorney for McGuire's family said it plans to sue the state over what happened. Dayton defence lawyer Jon Paul Rion said the family is deeply disturbed by the execution, which it believes violated his constitutional rights.

McGuire's lawyers had attempted last week to block his execution, arguing that the untried method could lead to a medical phenomenon known as air hunger and cause him to suffer "agony and terror" while struggling to catch his breath.

McGuire, 53, made loud snorting noises during one of the longest executions since Ohio resumed capital punishment in 1999. Nearly 25 minutes passed between the time the lethal drugs began flowing and McGuire was pronounced dead at 10:53 a.m.

Executions under the old method were typically much shorter and did not cause the kind of sounds McGuire made.

Ohio prisons spokeswoman JoEllen Smith had no comment on how the execution went but said a review will be conducted as usual.

Prison officials gave intravenous doses of two drugs, the sedative midazolam and the painkiller hydromorphone, to put McGuire to death for the 1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a pregnant newlywed, Joy Stewart.

The method was adopted after supplies of a previously used drug dried up because the manufacturer declared it off limits for capital punishment.

The execution is certain to launch a new round of federal lawsuits over Ohio's injection procedure. The state has five more executions scheduled this year, with the next one to come on Feb. 19.

Capital punishment continues to be a much-debated subject in the United States. In all, 39 executions were carried out last year, according to the Death Penalty Information Center.

What was particularly unusual Thursday was the five minutes or so that McGuire lay motionless on the gurney after the drugs began flowing, followed by a sudden snort and then more than 10 minutes of irregular breathing and gasping. Normally, movement comes at the beginning and is followed by inactivity.

"Oh, my God," his daughter, Amber McGuire, said as she watched his final moments.

In pressing for the execution to go ahead, state Assistant Attorney General Thomas Madden had argued that while the U.S. Constitution bans cruel and unusual punishment, "you're not entitled to a pain-free execution."

U.S. District Judge Gregory Frost sided with the state. But at the request of McGuire's lawyers, he ordered officials to photograph and preserve the drug vials, packaging and syringes.

The selection of drugs for use in executions in the U.S. involves more than just considerations of effectiveness. It is complicated by the politics of the death penalty, questions of medical ethics and the constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

In Ohio's case, the state in recent years used pentobarbital -- a form of which is used to put down cats and dogs. But the state's supply ran out after the manufacturer refused to allow its use in executions.

Some executions with pentobarbital ran into problems, but they involved difficulties inserting the needle, not trouble with the effectiveness of the drug itself.

A few minutes before McGuire was put to death, Ohio prison director Gary Mohr said he believed the state's planning would produce "a humane, dignified execution" consistent with the law.

Strapped to a gurney in the death chamber, McGuire thanked Stewart's family members, who witnessed the execution, for their "kind words" in a letter he apparently received from them.

"I'm going to heaven. I'll see you there when you come," he said.

Stewart's slaying went unsolved for 10 months until McGuire, jailed on an unrelated assault and hoping to improve his legal situation, told investigators he had information about the death. His attempts to pin the crime on his brother-in-law quickly unraveled, and he was accused of the killing.

More than a decade later, DNA evidence confirmed McGuire's guilt, and he acknowledged his responsibility in a letter to Gov. John Kasich last month.

The death row inmate's lawyers argued McGuire was mentally, physically and sexually abused as a child and had impaired brain function that made him prone to act impulsively.

"We have forgiven him, but that does not negate the need for him to pay for his actions," Stewart's family said in a statement after the execution.

These were some of the latest comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaist (View Post)

They've clearly got the moral high ground there, in not supplying them with these lethal drugs anymore.

But of what use is it if they choose to go for much more barbaric means to kill then instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by placebobsh (View Post)

At least it's off of European's shoulders...the barbaric methods...although the medicine used isn't the most inhumane thing. Personally, if we're going to kill people, I think they should have a choice how they want to go. Me, I'd want to be like in North Korea where they drop a bomb on you. Quick and painless.

**sunnykerr** · 01-17-2014, 07:26 PM

That's the great lie of how they use to give the lethal injections, though, isn't it?

It made it all nice and "civilized," as if it's not the state appartus snuffing out the life of human being.

(And, again, I'm not even questioning the guilt of the person being put to death. This isn't about feeling sympathy for criminals, murderers, rapists and so forth. It's about wondering what the death penalty says about the society that uses it.)

The reason they stopped doing the gas chamber and the electric chair is precisely because the people who came to witness it were, rightly, disgusted by it.

If this keeps on happening, I have a feeling they'll just keep looking for other ways to kill prisoners.

Ways that won't turn people's stomachs when they're forced to see what taking a life looks like.

**GardenSirens** · 01-17-2014, 09:43 PM

Seeing someone die is going to F you up no matter who you are or how they're killed. The gas chamber was good in terms it was cheap. Just acid and I forget what the substance dropped in it was. However, the cleanup for that put the people who had to take the body out at risk of exposure. Lose/lose to kill someone. It's not karma there. Let them suffer in prison where they can live a long life (thanks to the healthcare) to think about what they did every day and how that little moment of lack of clarity lead to them being trapped forever. Much greater punishment, if you ask me.

**sunnykerr** · 01-18-2014, 11:51 AM

Oh, I agree. I completely believe that death is easy for criminals.

Spending their lives in prison would be a much better punishment, if that's what we're going for.

And it's interesting, because I swear I had heard that part of why the gas chambers were discontinued was because the condemned wound up bashing their own heads in once the gas got going, which was traumatic for the witnesses.

**GardenSirens** · 01-18-2014, 01:26 PM

Holy crap, I never heard that but it's insane!!

quaist · 01-18-2014, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by placebobsh (View Post)

Me, I'd want to be like in North Korea where they drop a bomb on you.

They actually do this? Never heard about that, though I wouldn't be too surprised given it's North Korea.

As for inhumane killing methods -- I've once seen a documentary where they tried to find the 'most painless' means of putting people to death. Turns out it's suffocation, by slowly reducing oxygen step by step. Apparently the brain reacts in a way that you're getting 'high' and subsequently lose consciousness before dying.

Not that I'm in favor of the death penalty -- just the opposite. But if some countries still feel they have to do this, why not go for a less painful method at least?

**sunnykerr** · 01-19-2014, 12:41 PM

Matt It apparently depended on whether or not the gas chamber had a solid enough head-strap to keep the head in place.

Christina That sounds like garrotting to me, which they used in Spain, I believe, once upon a time.

Honestly, I don't understand why this practice still happens in democracies.

**GardenSirens** · 01-20-2014, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaist (View Post)

They actually do this? Never heard about that, though I wouldn't be too surprised given it's North Korea.

As for inhumane killing methods -- I've once seen a documentary where they tried to find the 'most painless' means of putting people to death. Turns out it's suffocation, by slowly reducing oxygen step by step. Apparently the brain reacts in a way that you're getting 'high' and subsequently lose consciousness before dying.

Not that I'm in favor of the death penalty -- just the opposite. But if some countries still feel they have to do this, why not go for a less painful method at least?

North Korea does do that. Kim Jong Il and now Un use that to kill military officials and what not. Messed up albeit nifty way to go out. I'd be cool bringing back drawn and quartering or guillotine (cost reasons and quick). Not advocating the DP but we do need to look at it in terms of tax payer dollars. Without me using Google...what's the death penalty laws up there in good ole Canada land?

quaist · 01-20-2014, 03:26 PM

Matt, well, what's there left to say... North Koreans are not to be envied for where they were born.

Sunny, I don't know how the Spanish conducted this exactly, but in said documentary they slowly withdrew oxygen over a period of fifteen minutes or so. The producer, who wanted to try the dizzy feeling one gets then out, actually happened to get so 'high' that he nearly had to be dragged out of this specially prepared room.

For he couldn't measure up his being in danger of death should he stay there anymore, despite expressly being told so.

**sunnykerr** · 01-20-2014, 07:27 PM

The laws on death penalty are pretty straightforward in Canada, Matt. We don't have it.

It was repealed in the 1970s.

That's a map of the world according to where the death penalty remains in use.

"Blue" countries are where the death penalty has been abolished for all crimes.

"Yellow" countries have it in place for special crimes (such as those committed in wartime).

"Orange" countries are where the death penalty is still in the books, but it hadn't been used in at least a decade at the time this map was made (2013).

"Red" countries are where the death penalty is still used.

Not to make too fine of a point of it, but you'll notice how the "red" countries are mostly Middle Eastern countries (many of which have Sharia law) and the United States.

Per Wikipedia, that means 100 countries have abolished the death penalty, seven still have it for exceptional circumstances, 48 haven't used it in upwards of ten years, and 40 still use it for a variety of crimes.

And, today, 30 people were given a death sentence in Vietnam for drug smuggling.

**sunnykerr** · 01-22-2014, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Texas to execute Mexican citizen despite US concerns

The US state of Texas plans to execute a Mexican national convicted of murder, over the objections of the US and Mexican governments.

Mexico says Wednesday's execution of Edgar Tamayo, 46, will violate international law.

The country says he was not told of his right to seek legal assistance from the Mexican consulate when he was arrested.

US Secretary of State John Kerry has made the rare move of asking Texas to delay the execution.

In January 1994, Tamayo shot and killed police officer Guy Gaddis, 24, as he was being arrested for robbery. He was in the US illegally.

Gaddis, who had been on the Houston police force for two years, was driving Tamayo and another man when he was shot three times in the head and neck with a pistol Tamayo had concealed in his pants.

Texas executes more offenders than any other US state. Sixteen people were put to death last year in Texas, compared to seven in Florida, the state with the second-highest execution count.

'The ultimate penalty'

Tamayo's lawyers and Mexican officials say he was protected under a provision of the 1963 Vienna Convention on Consular Relations that allows arrested citizens of foreign countries to receive legal assistance from their consulates.

But Tamayo was not notified of his right to seek consular assistance.

His lawyers argue such assistance could have uncovered evidence to contest the capital murder charge or to keep Tamayo off death row.

Texas officials maintain their procedures met US Supreme Court guidance.

"It doesn't matter where you're from," said Lucy Nashed, a spokeswoman for Governor Rick Perry. "If you commit a despicable crime like this in Texas, you are subject to our state laws, including a fair trial by jury and the ultimate penalty."

But Mr Kerry has asked Texas officials to delay the execution by lethal injection, scheduled for 18:00 local time on Wednesday (midnight GMT on Thursday), in order to review whether the lack of access prejudiced the outcome of the case.

In a letter to state officials, America's highest ranking diplomat, a former prosecutor, said he had "no reason to doubt the facts of Mr Tamayo's conviction" but was concerned about how the case could affect US-Mexico relations and the way Americans are treated overseas.

On Tuesday, state department spokeswoman Marie Harf said: "If we our self don't uphold those obligations, it will make it much harder for us to ask other countries to do so."

Former Texas Governor Mark White has also called for a review, writing in the Austin American-Statesman newspaper he believed in capital punishment but "this case is not about whether we support or oppose the death penalty. It's about fairness and having the courts hear all the key facts."

The Mexican government has warned Texas' failure to review Tamayo's case and reconsider his sentence would be "a clear violation by the United States of its international obligations".

He was among the four dozen Mexican nationals awaiting execution in the US in 2004 when the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Netherlands, ruled they had not been advised properly of their consular rights.

Former President George W Bush ordered Texas and other states to review the cases, but the US Supreme Court ruled in favour of the state in 2008, saying the president could not effectively enforce The Hague's ruling, leaving it to Congress to pass legislation.

Two other men in the Hague case have already been executed over Mexico's objections.

Now, I am always 100% against the death penalty. However, I will say that when you know it is on the books, the bestest way to not get the death penalty is to not commit the crime that will get you that sentence.

But that's assuming a lot of things, isn't it?

I wasn't at his trial, so I don't know. But he wouldn't be the first person to be convicted wrongfully.

And if he wasn't advised of his full rights, that's a clear violation of international law (mind you, there's nothing the U.S. likes more than flouting international law).

Also, there's the not-small matter of racism as applied to death-penalty sentences.

I'm sure Texas has more open-minded people than not, but I also see the U.S. news and it's not hard to imagine how a Texas jury might look upon and illegal Mexican who is accused of killing a young police officer who caught him during the commission of a crime.

Logan · 01-25-2014, 06:46 PM

I know in My State there is upcoming decision .from US Attorney on wither to make the case for, surviving Boston Marathom bomber with the Death penalty if (when) found guity of murder and terrorism . Taking into the facts of the one who lived , his brother killed a police officer 2 days after the bombing in cold blood . the deliberate act to maim kill US citizens .

Massachusetts doesn't have the Death penalty thus why , as i understand it , Us attorny is making the decion . Or is it the fact that this trial charges are under US Terrorism law.

Frankly i do not think many in this state will have any issue if this A- hole is put to death ..

I undertand no matter who is facing a death penalty no matter how hanoius the crime , always be anti death penalty supporters ..

I am not really up on exact laws in Us as far as Terrorism ..

not really up on death penalty only as far as most who are sentenced to die , sit in prison for many years , some as long as 10 yrs before being put to death .

That is a issue i have discussed with friends and the main issue with Death penalty .

Most feel if the person is not put to death say within a year it is waste of money and time.

Yes there are cases where perhaps this is too extrme for the crime .

In this case , it is ,for me, a no brainier .. Open and shut case .. i am sure the many that where maimed in the attack or lost a loved one may feel the same .
Then , I am sure there are those who where injured who still wont agree with the exreme punishment ..

**sunnykerr** · 01-26-2014, 10:36 AM

Matt I expect it is a federal case because of the terrorism angle, which is a federal jurisdictional issue, and not because of the absence of a death penalty in Massachussetts.

Basically, if these guys had killed and injured the exact same amount of people, but at a party or in a cinema or a shopping centre, they wouldn't be facing the death penalty.

But they blew bombs at an international event, so the jurisdiction automatically went federal.

And objection to the death penalty, as far as I know, is only partially about cases where guilt might be in question.

Most of the time, it's about societal concerns, ie wondering what it says about a society that it will take a person's life, and about retribution, ie death is easy.

For instance, there were people who opposed the death penalty for Timothy McVeigh, up to and including families of his victims.

In the case of the Boston Marathon bombers, I don't think anyone is feeling any sympathy for the perpetrators. This being a federal matter, I don't know whether his appeals process will be as long as it would be at the state level, though.

Logan · 01-26-2014, 12:11 PM

I understand it as buy February , The US Attorney will make the ruling on to try him with the Death Penalty . Depsite the attorney for the bomber ,trying to delay the case it will go no .

I am also not sure if a change a venue ,another state was also on the table ..

Yes Sunny, in this world there will always be those who disagree with the Death pentaly

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/us...w&rref=us&_r=0

NY times article on the Death Penalty question

quaist · 01-26-2014, 01:59 PM

I don't know.

If nothing else, at least we'd prove that we're not stooping to their level when we decide against putting him to death, not claiming to have this right.

That being said, there's countless other arguments against the death penalty as well, and I'm fully recognizing that what Tsarnaev did was a horrible crime. This fact cannot be reasoned away, ever.


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