starryeyesxx

It is, but even though this huge thing happened, I still feel like they could have worked it out...

But the writers just decided they were done

Crystal Clear

Never made sense to me.

Wesley definitely wasn't unhappy with Lilah, and I always thought killing off Lilah was a huge mistake when her humanity definitely showed with Wes (& their great chemistry).

This is acknowledged when Fred asks Wesley "you hated her, right?" and he simply answers, "it's not always about holding hands."

In other words, he learned to care about someone other than Fred, even if the methods of getting to that emotional place with Lilah weren't conventionally romantic.

That could have been their silent understanding, and Fred should have been shown working damn hard to try and renew her romance with Gunn. He deserved better.

starryeyesxx

Wesley & Lilah had a pretty complicated dynamic, which was really interesting as it was obvious they were starting to fall for each other. Would have been very interesting to see where that would have gone if she had lived...

& we saw from Fred that she did miss Gunn & want to give it another chance with him, but I think he needed to see her try harder so that he could be sure that that's what she wanted

Crystal Clear

It's deeply sad how Season 5 just cuts Gunn out of the equation altogether, to the point where Fred dies and Gunn is made to feel responsible for the whole thing (and basically tries to commit suicide by offering himself in Lindsey's place in that creepy hell dimension)

And I do think Lilah meant a hell of a lot to Wesley He tried desperately to burn her Wolfram & Hart contract in S4 finale to free her of them. That's love.

starryeyesxx

Yeah, it was love. He struggled to admit it, but that's what it was

Fred & Gunn are so neglected in s5, I've said before that it's as if they forgot about their relationship was Connor was taken out of their memories...

Crystal Clear

Wow, I'd never thought about that possibility

That could have been a factor He was present during that summer they spent without Angel and during a lot of their relationship.

starryeyesxx

I don't think that's actually what happened, but who knows.... there was a lot between them that was never mentioned again...

eternalfate

I agree, and in a way it probably seemed too good to be truth.
They were just so happy and in love with each other and to see it go downhill like that is so unfortunate.

Crystal Clear

That would have been a clever twist to bring into Season 5 -- the idea that erasing Connor erased most of the group's memories from Season 3/4 with each other.

But then again, Season 5 didn't rely much on logic of any kind, did it?

starryeyesxx

True, all of the characters seemed a bit off...

& it does seem like quite a bit had to be erased to erase Connor. So if Connor was never born, did Wesley never betray the group? Did things not get as ugly between all of them?

Crystal Clear

That's what it seemed like

It erased their memory of Wesley ever having been estranged from the group.

I can deal with that to an extent... What really bugged me was that Fred and Gunn barely even acknowledged each other during the whole of Season 5. No excuses for that

starryeyesxx

There's really not, they had been in love... that doesn't just go away

Crystal Clear

Like... When Gunn confronts Wesley about dating Fred, he has such a jokey and nonchalant attitude about it, I was thinking,

"Joss, do you actually remember or care about all those episodes you wrote where GUNN AND FRED DATED AND LOVED EACH OTHER???"

starryeyesxx

Yeah, it just didn't add up... especially with how disrespectful Wesley had been to their relationship. I know that Gunn was gonna react way better than Wesley ever did, but still...

eternalfate

That's what I always assumed.
I'm not sure if Lilah was mentioned? however I assume without Connor that Wes stayed with the group and Wes relationship with Lilah didn't exist... so Wes was always pinning after Fred...

And I believe the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle was more existence in the Connor memories wipe.