[Bronson]

This is the episode where Cordelia wished that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale and how the town and everyone would have been different. Xander and Willow being vamped, the Bronze being a vampire hangout, Angel being in a cage being tortured by VampWillow, and of course the Master being above ground. It was a good episode. There were a few things missing such as where were Darla, Luke, and Jesse? And Alternate Buffy was certainly different. The real Buffy was perky and wish cracking and this one was cynical.


So how did you guys like this episode? If so or if not, please express your opinions.

[saturn5]

The Wish

The Good;
All of it! Just wonderful! Great reveal of Anya the demon and the action sequences especially

The Bad;
Surely in vampdominated Sunnydale people would prefer to let their kids drive home from SDH?

Best line;
Buffy; Your logic is not like our earth logic

Wheldon Cliches;

Character death;
Everyone except Giles, Larry, Harmony and Oz. But then thankfully they're all alive again. Cordy's death is particularly disturbing. Of course the obvious question is what about all the people who died in the proper Buffyverse? It would have been a nice touch if Jenny, Jessie and Principle Flutie were still alive at SDH, if Nancy was actually Theresa from Phases. And of course if Buffy never died in the Master's pool then Kendra is still alive too

Shot;
VampXander is hit by Buffy's crossbow

Tied up;
Angel in chains

Knocked out;
Giles and Oz

Women good/men bad;
If anything with Vampwillow we see femalekind at it's worse. The way Harmony and co treat Cordy is horrible, you really feel for her but I guess it's revenge for her 'Sheep' speech.

Kinky dinky;
Where do you begin? PVC-clad VampWillow plays no-safety-word S&M sex games with 'Puppy' whilst leatherclad vampXander watches. Buffy thinks the hero worship that everyone shows her in Sunnydale is a 'get in my pants thing'.

Calling Captain Subtext;
vampWillow has obvious lesbian overtones (her killing of both Cordy and the Master's victim is almost akin to snuff). However she still digs Xander and Angel so it's still more than likely she's bi rather than gay.

Guantanamo Bay;
Plenty of torture but only by the bad guys

Questions and observations
Staggeringly brilliant in every way and anyone who doesn't think so should be locked up as a danger to themselves and others. Great ending too, cool, touching and funny, wonderful music. Plus Jonathon AND Larry, great.
What is the Mayor doing in Master dominated Sunnydale? And the Initiative? Where are Darla and Luke, killed by the White Hat's? Where are Hank and Joyce? Who is the Watcher Giles talks to on the telephone? Wesley? Sam Zebuto (Kendra's Watcher)? Gwendoline Post? Giles refers to demonic activity in Cleveland which will be referenced in Chosen as Giles says there's a 2nd Hellmouth there (presumably inactive?) We always knew Buffy was an exceptional Slayer and that the Watcher's found her late but here we see that without Giles and the Scoobies' help she ends up battlehardened, emotionally cut off and with the Slayer deathwish, just like all the others. Interesting to compare 'The Wish' Buffy with Faith (and what's happening to her in the Wishverse?)
And here's Anya, no sign as yet that she'll become a major character and appear in the opening credits.
Now, where does the Wishverse lie in the continuity of things? I figure it's a dead end, a right angle to the real timestream that stops dead at the moment Giles smashes the pendant. Of course what happens if the Wishverse had continued? Well with all respect to Kendra I don't see her lasting that long leaving it to Faith to defeat The Master. So that would mean that Dawn is Faith's sister, Giles her Watcher, a grieving Joyce and Hank surrogate parents to both LeHane girls and Larry, Oz, Harmony and Amy as the Scoobygang? Would that make Spike the PTB's souled-vamp champion, just try picturing him and Doyle as a team. Interesting to wonder, huh?
Once read a great fanfic where all the Scoobys are vamps but this meant that the valiant Darla was the Slayer and The Mayor, Adam, a human Spike and Dru, Glory and the Nerds were all good guys and made up her alternate Scooby Gang. It says a lot for the depth of character Joss gives his villains that the concept actually worked really well, that they all could have been heroes if things had taken a different path. Backwardsworld, a Buffy: The Vampire Slayer fanfic - FanFiction.Net
Actually Cordy has dated Jonathon before or at least let him buy her a muffin at the Bronze in Inca Mummy Girl. We hear the gang go on about how Faith has become more and more distant since the events of Revalations, Buffy has sympathy for her and we later see she wouldn't have been too different to her under other circumstances. You have to agree with Oz turning Will down, he's right as to her motivations. You note that although things are bad in SD the Harvest wasn't the end of the world it was advertised to be, the rest of the world goes on pretty much unaffected. How do they dispose of all the demon bodies they leave lying around?
Legend has it there's a girl looking just like Faith amongst the prisoners at the Factory. Eliza Dushku however has stated at a convention that this definitely isn't her, she wasn't even on set that day. Popular explanation is that this is her stand in/stunt double earning some spare cash as an extra.
10/10 and a whole lot more.

[ashleyt]

Would Dawn exist in a universe without Buffy?

[Burning Up A Sun]

Well the key would still exist right? The key had nothing to do with Buffy. The monks made Dawn out of Buffy though so if they were to make another human out of the key from someone else it wouldn't be Dawn exactly.

[saturn5]

I believe the Wishverse to be a dead end in the timeline, it ceases to exist the moment Giles smashes Anyanka's necklace. However if it did continue this would then mean that Faith would be the Slayer (sorry, just don't see Kendra lasting that long) and Dawn would be HER sister.

It's a fascinating area to consider and there's been plenty of fanfic on subject. With Dawn to ground her Faith never goes bad whilst Dawn herself is still the same girl but a bit more gothy, sort an Avril Lavigne like character. Both Lehane girls are eventually adopted by a grieving Hank and Joyce to help them get over losing Buffy whilst Faith forms her own Scoobygang from Amy, Warren, Jonothan, Larry, Harmony, Oz, Jenny Calender, Jesse, Theresa, Giles etc all the people in Sunnydale who did die when Buffy was there now surviving. Joyce doesn't die in season 5 because Faith is there to save her adoptive mother and Tara isn't killed by Warren because he's one of the good guys

[ashleyt]

Dawn could exist in another form but then she wouldn't be right? She could be a boy. And technically Kendra could be more Buffy like in that she has friends and isn't cut off from her family so she could last long while Faith may never be called.

[saturn5]

I think Dawn is a little girl as they're universally considered the most precious things in the world so she'd still be the Dawnie we'd know with a little more Faith influence. Kendra would also be the same, she was taken from her family by the Watchers at a young age and without Buffy's influence would probably be dead even sooner. For my money Faith is our girl, Dawn is her sister, Hank and Joyce their adoptive parents and all the characters who perished in the Sunnydale we know survive to be her Scoobygang