then you must kiss me

then you must kiss me

Old Thread



Previously, on the Colin/Mike thread

Thief Of Love

BWAH! I'm not much of a Colin fan, but I had to post to comment on that title. (And congrats on starting your first Everwood thread, Ellie!)

then you must kiss me

haha, thanks. I was enjoying the play on words!

everwoodfan52

Great job, Ellie!!

jediwands

Thanks Ellie for bringing my post over and for starting the new thread.

There's one scene I think of when I feel so sorry for Colin and that is when he throws up because his brain dysfunction is progressing. Man, that was so tough to see and Mike played that scene so perfectly.

'Tos

Thanks for the new thread, Ellie!

And I hate to disagree with Michelle (I really do, hee, it sucks! We agree so much so this is weird), but I don't agree with Berlanti and the writers showing only his bad traits. I think if you look at "Home", his immediate post-surgery moments and many of his moments with Amy where he wasn't acting all jerky, we saw a lot of heart from Colin. Again, I think for every bad, jerky moment we saw from him, we saw a good moment too. To me, he's never been black and white. I'm not sure if Berlanti wanted us to like him or not (although the "Home" commentaries at least indicate that he felt for Colin quite deeply), but I do think he wanted us to find him more complex than the everyday teen male in a triangle.

I do agree that the town's reasons for liking him are superficial, but I think that's more of a comment on why people are well-liked by society than anything. People do like the good-looking, athletic, popular people, that have the smile and can charm them. And it is superficial as anything, but it's often exactly how things work. And that's why I think Colin's friendship with Ephram post-surgery is as much of an expression of the Real Colin as his jerky moments towards Ephram later are. They're both a piece of him, the good moments and the bad. Post surgery, Colin didn't have to immediately fit into anyone's expectations, and he was a nice guy. I do think that says something about who he wanted to be as a person. Of course, he fell away from that quickly, and that also says something about who he is as a person. He is certainly not the most noble person in the show, but I think he makes as many bad choices and says as many mean things as the other teenage characters in the series. Amy, Ephram and Bright have said much worse things just to hurt each other, it's just that over the course of the series we got to see them grow and we got to find out why they acted this way.

SPORTSUSA

Oh yeah, Mitch, ITA about that scene. That was completely heartbreaking.

I also agree with you and Betty on your thoughts at the end of the last thread. I believe the physical violence was the brain issues but the other stuff was the real Colin. I'm not sure I would have been too fond of him overall. I certainly felt sorry for him because of his illness but as a person I completely think Berlanti wanted him shown a certain way, you nailed that I believe, Mitch.

jediwands

Well the thing that I've always wondered about was why it was known that Colin was planning on breaking up with Amy. Why did Berlanti find that so important for us to find out? I think there's big reasoning for this.

I guess I wasn't satisfied enough with his backstory to warm up to him is the problem I had. That, and like I mentioned, Amy talked about how everyone loved him and I never saw evidence as to why this was. To be honest I was the popular athlete in high school and I would have cringed if I thought people liked me only because of my "status" if that makes sense. I would hope people would have seen me as a whole person instead. I hope anyway. LOL.

Somehow I got the impression that Bright and Amy kissed the ground that Colin walked on. I don't know if my impression is wrong but that bothers me because I never understood why. In contrast, being an EA fan I was certainly glad Amy never worshipped Ephram in this way. Thank God they were mutual 100%. Well, actually Ephram put up with A LOT from Amy in the first two seasons but eventually they evened out which I liked.

I guess the bottom line is I don't feel like I knew enough about Colin to make a really clear judgment but from what I did know I couldn't warm up to him that much outside of the illness storyline but Colin as a whole, not really.

ETA: I don't believe Berlanti was deliberately not showing us Colin's good traits per se. I believe Berlanti was showing us ENOUGH about Colin that was needed, however. So your interpretation could be based on exactly what you saw. That sounds muddled but I don't know how to better explain it. Well, ok, I will try... what I mean is he didn't show us a huge Colin backstory because he didn't feel that it was important enough... because? Well, because I believe he didn't really want us deeply invested in Colin too, too, much. Was it because he knew Colin was being killed off or he just wanted to leave a certain impression? I think it was about leaving a certain impression IMO.

'Tos

I think that's fair, Michelle, and I think that expresses what most fans think about him too, really. I am in the smallest of minorities when it comes to Colin.

I think the idea of Bright and Amy idolizing Colin is an interesting point. Because Amy definitely did. Her first crush, her first relationship, this older boy, this boy who had always been apart of her life and could have been apart of her future (Harold makes a nice reference to Amy thinking that Colin would be apart of her future in early S2), so I think her idolizing him is why she tolerates his bad moments, and tries to cover up for him and gets so defensive about him. Bright, on the other hand, idolized him as a best friend, but he doesn't go as far as Amy does, so it's easier for him to let go when he sees that Colin isn't the same person as he remembered him being.

To me, and this is just me, but just like Hannah's essential purpose as a character was to push for growth in Bright, Colin's a lot like that for Amy. I think the idea that Colin was ultimately going to break up with Amy is a further indication that Amy had built up a fantasy about Colin, idolized him as you point out, but all of that fantasy comes crumbling down when he wakes up. Which leads to tremendous growth for her in season one, and then again in S2 after he's gone.

I'm in a yappy mood about Colin today, hee. *zips mouth*

And to SPORTSUSA!

ETA for a last comment (maybe, heh): That's true, I completely agree that we didn't see a huge backstory for him. In my mind, it's because Colin's arc is never, ever about Colin. It's all about furthering who Amy is as a character. He's not a standalone character in that way, he's always interconnected to Amy, so the backstory that we do get is all about Amy. We don't fully invest in Colin as a character like we do with other characters, and we don't get that fuller backstory, because it's never about him, it's about how he ends up affecting Amy. And I liked that. Berlanti is so smart to just give us just the amount of Colin that we need to have him affect Amy and see a different side of her and to take her in a whole other direction. He's still more complex than most shows would have that kind of character be, but the writers make sure that every aspect of Colin leads to something deeper in Amy.

jediwands

Did your opinion go back and forth or did you always generally like the character?

VERY true. We saw Bright's loyalty to Colin whenever he wanted to beat the crap out of Ephram for doing something so horrible such as talking to Amy. Heh. I almost felt like Bright was Colin's bodyguard or something whenever he was acting in this manner. LOL. It was less about Amy being the sister and more about Amy being his best friend's girl which I found kind of weird. Oh I don't think Bright loved the idea of geeky Ephram near his sister in general initially just like Harold for that matter (which was mostly because Ephram was liberal Andy's son who Harold has the love/hate for from the start!) but overall it seemed to be mostly about Bright being this troll, protecting Colin's girl which made me cringe a bit. Of course Colin being all sick had to have caused severe stress for Bright so it might have been the reason why he was so defensive as well. Whenever Bright witnessed violent Colin going after Ephram then after Bright, it was like Bright knew right then and there Colin had already died even if physically he was still around. That was very sad to see. Bright had that moment where he had huge clarity about the situation. Of course he tried to tell Amy this who got pissed at Bright for having the nerve to actually talk sense about it.

Yes, Amy, did have this huge loyalty and worship thing going on with Colin. It did annoy me. I think in many ways this is why Amy was both turned on and turned off by Ephram because she sensed Ephram was this guy who would treat her like she was the Queen of the World and Amy wasn't necessarily too comfortable with this, so she acted so hot and cold with Ephram as a result. Well, she didn't like the star treatment because she knew this could be an actual mutual relationship where she didn't have to work so hard to keep up with Ephram like she did with Colin. Instead Ephram was keeping up with Amy and in a way she did like this since it was new and exciting (which was when she was acting like she was into Ephram) but also scary because she wasn't used to it nor did she feel comfortable with the fact that she was falling for this guy who, in many ways, was the polar opposite of Colin. It also ruined her fantasy and she could not part with that. She couldn't imagine stopping her fairytale lovestory with Colin and that meant she had to have 100% dedication to him. Of course the reality was she was falling hard for Ephram but she fought it like crazy and boy did she put up a good fight.

You summed this up perfectly.

I also think in Vegetative State Amy started to truly realize the fantasy was crumbling but ironically it was Ephram who told her she couldn't give up on Colin if for no other reason than she had to be there for him no matter what. I often wonder had Ephram granted Amy's request to be with her in that episode (she absolutely was telling Ephram she wanted to explore a romantic relationship with him) what would have happened.



Wow those are beautful points. Great stuff. I never looked at it in this way in the least! If you take your words and apply them to Colin then you can see what he was all about. As a result, you don't really judge him because you would only be judging a situation, not really on a personal level because you're not forced to going personal, it's all about watching the layers of Amy transform and develop. That makes sense. It also solves the mystery as to why I couldn't feel strongly for him yet I certainly felt strongly for Amy so Colin helped me in this way which means I have to give him points for this.

everwoodfan52

What I did notice about Amy is that when she's in a relationship with a guy, she is super loyal, no matter what. She overlooked Colin's violent outbursts..... asked Bright not to say anything even when she saw how beat up his face was.
It was the same with Tommy. She could see that he was lying to her, she could see that he looked like he was drugged up.....Laynie tried to warn her....but she continued to stick up for him and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Amy was even loyal to Ephram. When he returned from New York after his aborted audition....Ephram was definitely broken. Harold tried to get Amy to see that perhaps she should rethink the relationship. Amy would never abandon Ephram no matter what! It was Ephram who ended the relationship.
So, I would say that if you want a loyal girl friend.....Amy's the girl for you.


You're right...Amy didn't really love Colin....he was a fairy tale kind of boyfriend that she wanted to hold onto. Ephram was ruining everything. He was interrupting the fairytale. Amy was scared, she had to get rid of Ephram. Otherwise, she wouldn't be able to concentrate on Colin. It's like having someone tell you something that you don't want to hear....so you put your hands over your ears. That's what Amy did. She didn't put her hands over her ears, but she sent Ephram away so that she didn't have to hear him.She knew deep down that Ephram was for her, but that would ruin her idea of a fantasy romance

jediwands

That's a good point. Totally forgot about Tommy. She was depressed and essentially not her true self but the same pattern existed here where she denied his faults like she denied Colin's faults even if the motivation was for different reasons (Fairytale with Colin, Depression and denial with Tommy) it was the same thing.

LOL. You're right she was loyal to Ephram. At least she was doing so because she knew in her heart they were meant to be. And Ephram had to work hard to win her heart completely again.

Yep. I also believe Colin knew this and that had to do with why his last encounter with Ephram was so tense. I asked this question a year or so back... I posed the question of what would have happened had Colin lived? Would Amy have stayed with him and they would have gotten the happy ending or would they have broken up and Amy and Ephram would have been together? I think if you feel like Amy/Colin would have stayed together then they had a real thing going on and it wasn't fantasy but if you believe Amy/Colin would have broken up regardless and Amy would have ended up with Ephram then you believe in the meant to be tag involving Ephram/Amy. In my mind it's a no brainer... I believe Colin sadly passing away was insignficant with respect to who Amy was going to end up with. She was destined to be with Ephram from the moment his purple hair hit her field of vision. Berlanti cemented this notion all the more whenever he had Laynie reveal Colin was breaking up with her. It was just another piece to the puzzle of what was truly going on between Colin/Amy versus what was going on between Ephram/Amy.

Although there is one scene that forever upsets me that might negate this but I chalk it up to a rare moment of bad writing and that is whenever Amy was telling Harold in that season episode about colleges that she thought she found the person she was going to end up with in Colin but he died and why shouldn't she want happiness if she can have it with Ephram. Oh man that was really weird writing because, yes, you can chalk that up to Amy being back in her fantasy world but I sort of thought by this time period she would have been able to separate what her relationship with Colin truly was versus what she had with Ephram. I believe Berlanti did a nice job to negate some of that in the flashback episode in season 4 while showing the fated meant to be tag between Ephram/Amy... thank God.

SPORTSUSA

I remember when you asked this and I thought it was a brilliant topic. I think you are right that it was insignifcant because Amy/Ephram were on a crash course to be together. I think Amy would have hung on until Colin recovered but she would continued to be pulled towards Ephram because that's just what was happening all the time... they were drawn to each other. So either Amy would have broken up with Colin or maybe Colin would have just flat out told her he understood what was going on between her and Ephram. But it was happening. I love how you use this example because when you view it in this way you can see the major differences between the two relationships.

I remember when this scene took place and FB spoilers went nuts. I think you were over there, remember that? All the dieharders over there were so irked by that horrible writing. Amy got nabbed as still living in the fantasy. People were ticked off. I agree that was off and one of the few moments where you don't feel the Everwood tone and beat of the show.

I missed your posts SO MUCH, Michelle. So glad you're back, never leave again, sweetie.

'Tos

Great to see a great discussion going on about Colin again. Although I'm (far, heh) in the minority, I really do see where others are coming from on Colin and I do find him to be a incredibly discussion-worthy character for one that only ended up being on the show for about half a season.

I'm going to go to pick a few things because..well, there's a lot of posts here lately, which is

I always liked him, but that's all Mike Erwin. I find him to be a phenomenal actor, so I readily admit that he biases what I think of Colin.

I agree completely on your takes on Bright and Amy's loyalty, Michelle. In fact, I think that Bright's turning point into this character that is independent and at times ready to mature (and at times, really not) is breaking apart from Colin. He tries to take more responsibility as a person at that point, and we see that in S2 much more with Amy when he refuses to cover for her when he knows that she's in trouble and desperately needs help.

Hee! Yay! I cracked Betty the other week when she complimented him and now I've got you giving him points. My evil plan for Colin to take over the board is finally coming together. *evil laugh* Hee, seriously though, you summed up my thoughts better than I did, really. Of course, if I could just apply the same method that I do with Colin, to Madison, I'd really have it made! As Betty pointed out to me, Madison is really all about inciting growth in Ephram. Making him more confident, more experienced, more ready so that he could finally be with Amy. But I STILL cannot stand her. So I totally have to give her points on developing Ephram, but I still cringe when she shows up on screen! Basically, I get how you feel about Colin 100%, because how you feel about him is probably how I feel about Madison.

Such a great point. I wonder if we would see her break out of that trend of being too loyal if Ephram and Amy had gotten together beyond S4? I think they both had matured so much by the end of S4, and I definitely think we would have seen a new Ephram in the relationship, so I wonder if we would have seen a new Amy too. Which is why it's so disappointing that we never got to see that mature relationship between them where they were BOTH ready and willing and all that before the series ended. We saw great hints, and attempts, but never as mature as we would have seen, I think.

Agreed completely. Like SPORTSUSA , I do think if Colin had lived, Amy would have stayed with him for a time, even maybe for a big chunk of S2. I think she would hold on to those memories of him, and the whole history they have and she would be unable to just let him go right away. But she would clearly know that it was all temporary. That it's always been Ephram.. And then voila, we'd have our end of S2, hee, but probably quite a bit quicker.

I'm blanking at the moment, because what episode and what scene is that conversation about Amy saying she would have ended up with Colin. Seriously, that hockey memory again, heh.