Jerry D

Very well said Michelle, and I have nothing to add to your perfectly stated thoughts as I've also said all that I want to say about this episode. I'll have plenty more to say as we watch and discuss the upcoming episodes.

jediwands

Looking forward to finishing up S3.

Alexa

You dont have to reply to my comments but it's completely unfair to ask the discussion to be dropped simply because you dont agree with me. That shouldn't be how a discussion thread works.

I like both of you and this board and respect you both as people. It doesn't matter to me that we have different opinions because its a tv show and anyone should be free to express how they feel. But i cant lie here, it does feel like you are both sort of teaming up. By constantly quoting each other and agreeing with literally every single post it does feel a bit passive aggressive, like you're trying to shut my opinion down. If you want to discuss with me you can just quote my post and reply, you dont need to come in and back each other up over every line? Im just being honest.

I can go back and quote if I need to, but i do think some things being said about Ephram are hateful... at the very least just kind of rude. Nothing from you Jerry, but from other people.

You have your own opinions about adoption Jerry but I dont think every adopted person feels the same way. In fact, I have seen a lot of documentaries and stories where the kids wanted to know their adoptive parents earlier. I think it varies case to case. And again, your parents chose that for you. Ephram did not.

The kid is Ephrams biological kid. He didnt make the decision to give it up for adoption and not be in its life. So, its really not the same thing at all. Had Ephram agreed to the adoption and then later changed his mind/wanted to see the kid and stormed up to the door I would have a different opinion but he didnt know the child existed.

Are you saying you expect Ephram to "let it go" and not see his child and just accept the adoption since its already happened? For him to just wait until the kid is older to say something? I really dont understand that line of thinking at all. You genuinely wouldn't be upset if a woman did this to you? If you really wanted to be a father and then that choice was taken from you, you should have the right to get custody back.

Yes, I do believe he has more rights than the adopted parents. Hes the biological father, that again, never agreed to give the child up. The biological parents have the rights FIRST before choosing to give it up for adoption. After that, then yes, the adoptive parents should have the rights.

That's not at all what I said or implied. You are taking my one sentence about him dating in general at 16 and applying it to a different situation. My point in making that comment was in regards to the Delias disussion. I'm saying we cant expect 16 year old to be celibate or not date/have crushes. Expecting him to be mature and care about what Delia thinks is unrealistic to me. Im not talking about expectations for him in other circumstances.

But he does do both of these things??? He didn't ask her for help, Amy offered, and he also did try to put distance between them. So I'm very confused what you mean.


I think that is an exaggerated number. I'm sorry Michelle, but again, 95% is extremely high. And there is no proof of this unless there is record of a poll out there I am not aware of. You can have that opinion that it was 95% of the opinion but its MY opinion that not everyone that supported him probably posted. Ive seen it happen numerous times on other boards or discussions when a character is being bashed. I find it very hard to believe that that many people would be against Ephram for this SL. I really do. Sure, I bet there was a disagreement over his actions and most people were angry with him but not 95%.


I can bring up everything Amy did over the years/in their relationship that was annoying too. No one is perfect. But again THIS EPISODE SPECIFICALLY if what we are discussing. There are plenty of times that Amy overreacted or acted irrationally in situations. But ive never once hated on her. Ive always tried to undrestand where she was coming from in situations and its sad to me that at one of the darkest moments in ephrams life, people arent extending the same courtesy.

Again, I dont care what Ephram says it the future as we are not there yet. it doesnt matter to me if the writers saw the anger towards Ephram and then re-wrote his opinons in season 4. I disagree that he needs to apologize for all of his actions during this time. Thats fine.

Brooke Davis on OTH excused her own actions multiple times and never thought she was in the wrong, are we supposed to agree with that simply because her own character said it???

Jerry D

Michelle and I aren't trying to team up to oppose what you're saying Alexa. It's just that Michelle and I have been posting together for many years and we're good friends and we often have the same points of view about this show and many other issues. In addition to that you, I, Michelle and Betty are the only ones participating in these episode discussion threads, and on this particular thread, it's really just been you, me and Michelle posting about this episode for the last few pages of this thread, so I can understand that when two of us have views that are different from yours, you could feel like we're teaming up against you, but I can assure you we're not.

I hate this whole Madisongate storyline to be honest, and yes, it was so unfair that Madison gave up her and Ephram's baby for adoption and she didn't allow him to have a say in it, and yes, Ephram had every right to be upset, but I didn't like how he took his anger and frustration out on Amy. This whole storyline was put into play to create drama and create drama it did, but I hate the type of drama that was created and I hate seeing the key relationships on the show destroyed the way they were.

Michelle and I weren't trying to shut down the discussion here but I think that we both felt that we've said all that we want to say about this particular episode, but if you'd like to continue discussing it, that's fine.

jediwands

We certainly weren’t trying to shut down general discussion on this thread. Admittedly, for me, I was shutting down what I personally had to say because this Everwood storyline exhausts me. It is the one part of the series that makes me frustrated. There’s so many things about it that bother me.

For me I don’t like that Ephram didn’t find out about the pregnancy immediately which should have come from Madison from the start. I don’t believe she ever should have gone to Andy. I don’t know all the legalities of the situation however and if it’s complicated by the fact that Ephram isn’t even an adult. We also don’t know if the adoption was opened or closed, something I just learned about recently. I also have no idea what this meant for Ephram and what powers he had legally.

I also can’t help but form opinions based on what we can pull from future episodes. It’s hard not to base some opinions on how we know storylines and characters behave in upcoming episodes and conclusion of storylines. On one hand, I can see how it’s better to just focus on each episode without looking ahead. On the other hand, I feel like we have the benefit of knowledge on how things turn out and then analyzing the past/present based on the future. So I see how both routes are beneficial.

Apologies if you think our opinions are too in sync on this subject. I kid you not, I’ve been posting with Jerry since the very beginning and we’ve both wanted to pull our hair out over this storyline every, single, year it has been discussed. We do see things in a similar way.

I just remember so much that went down on here at as moderator and at FB during this storyline when it was live. Based on what my eyes visually saw on both sites, I can firmly say the vast majority felt a similar way. There was even a thread discussing the frustrations over why TPTB went with this storyline because the vast majority hated it and in the end, Andy/Madison/Ephram all came across poorly. Even the small group of Ephram/Madison fans hated this storyline as they thought Madison came across poorly and Ephram as well, actually. I don’t know many who cheered on this storyline, I do know that most felt for Amy. I remember many people discussing S3, things that happened to Amy and how it is magnified because Ephram and Amy are officially together romantically versus in the past when they were not.

Bottom line is I just hate this storyline. LOL. It frustrates me.

jediwands

I personally wish we would have seen Ephram consulting a lawyer and discussing his options. He obviously did have power as the biological father. But having him explore options then decide on his own how it actually played out was for the best. It’s kind of what he even says after he returns from Europe but seeing it would have been interesting.

This is why I believe the storyline was never about the baby. It truly wasn’t or else the baby would have been seen and entered the storyline. This storyline was all about temporarily shattering the main relationships of the series in Andy/Ephram and Ephram/Amy. Thus, why so many hated watching these episodes.

Jerry D

I honestly don't know what legal options that Ephram would have had since Madison didn't name him as the father on the adoption papers. I suppose they would have to have some type of paternity test done, but the whole thing was ludicrous, because how could a 17 year old boy who was still in High School possibly take care of a baby? Madison obviously realized that she was in no position to take care of a baby, so she gave him up for adoption, but Ephram would have been in no position to take care of a baby either.

That's how I feel as well. This storyline was created for maximum drama but it was soap opera type drama and it destroyed the main relationships on the show and it took most of Season Four to get those relationships back on track, and then the show was over. On top of that, if we had gotten a Season Five it looked like the baby drama would have resurfaced again with (most likely) Madison having second thoughts about giving up her baby and wanting to use Ephram to get him back.

jediwands

Exactly. Maybe if Ephram wanted to research the adopted parents on his own, consult a lawyer to see if the adoption was open or closed just for the knowledge is strength angle. He didn't seem to trust Madison at all during this time period so I feel like this is where he should have put his time and energy, not lashing out at others or showing up at the adopted parents house and debating on whether or not to knock on the door. You want to proactively gain more information, Ephram, do it legally and with the right people around you.

Ephram's shock and anger at both Madison and Andy during this time period is justified. However, I will maintain what he did to Amy I just cannot agree with. As we know, he almost lost her and had to work like hell to get her back in S4.

A true nightmare, all around.

Yes, this was never, ever, about the baby, which I think is why the fandom was more focused on behavior, actions and treatment of others that went on between the characters and how they handled this drama. You hardly ever heard from people who actually wanted a baby running around the Brown house.

Jerry D

Until you mentioned open or closed adoption Michelle, both here and in our PM conversation I didn't know what those terms meant. I had to look them up.

I think that most likely it would have been a closed adoption, where all contact with the birth parent(s) would end once the adoption was finalized.

jediwands

Angela taught me the difference the other day. Working for the US Government she knows these things. I’m definitely not the smartest one in our relationship.

I agree, Jerry. Definitely think so as well. Which is why you have to wonder how Madison thought it was possible later on to revisit and based on Berlanti’s words this is precisely why she was returning in S5 temporarily.

Jerry D

Because she was Madison and she didn't care about anyone but herself. I think she might have had a possible legal loophole because she didn't name Ephram as the father when she signed the adoption papers and she wanted to convince Ephram to declare himself as the father of their child (with her confirming that he was the father) in an attempt to take their child away from his adoptive parents, which would have made me hate her even more.

I feel quite certain that my adoption was a closed adoption as I had no idea who my birth parents were until I took that DNA test.

I'm sure that all this modern DNA testing has changed a lot of peoples' lives. It did mine.

jediwands

Well we’re smart in different areas, how’s that?

Oh right! That’s why she was going to Ephram. Plus, think about how she would be essentially using him to go there too. She never cared before this time but she was willing to use him for her own selfish reasons and even bring back hurtful memories for Ephram, too.

Very true.

Jerry D

That's much better and more accurate!

Exactly. Typical Madison. Trying to get her child back from the parents who adopted him would cause them and the child so much anguish, all for her own selfish purposes. I'm so glad that we didn't see that story.

jediwands

Thanks.

Exactly. It would have been so in character seeing her roll right back into town like a wrecking ball, taking out anyone in the path.

Seeing Amy standing there alone next to the Ferris Wheel would have been heartbreaking. I’m honestly not even sure if I would have been able to fully support Ephram and Amy anymore. Seeing Amy once again hurt over circumstances beyond her control (and this time after she felt she finally could trust again) just would have been awful.

Jerry D

It still galls me that Rina gleefully said that Amy would suffer some more if we had gotten a Season Five. Her attitude really ticks me off. As many of us have said, it was a blessing in disguise that we didn't get a Season Five because it looked like we would have had to endure storylines that would have diminished the quality of the show and took away from its legacy to please the morons at the newly formed CW (Completely Worthless, trademark, you) Network. At least the show ended with happy endings for our favorite characters and couples.