Alexa

WHOA august 7? Why so far away?

I dont remember seeing him cringe, but only the writers know what was going on in his head.

I do think the news of the baby, and then him finding out that amy/andy knew really forced Ephram to pull away from EVERYONE. It was his own body/mind reactiing to this traumitizing news. Was it right? No. He should have tried to understand the situation and work through things,but people respond to trauma in different ways. And he needed space and time to come to terms, so I understand that.

of course people odnt have to be happy with Ephram for those decisions but I do feel like yall are being a bit too harsh on him. And only criticizing him, when there are many other people that deserve that same criticism imo.


Again, im waiting for thread 19 so I can finally discuss what was in that episode because we haven't gotten there yet and i feel like a lot of the conversations in here are referring to future stuff that happens, not this specific episode.


I think she expected for Andy to be a lot more understanding (which was dumb, but madison was kinda dumb lol) and yes, i think ultimately she expectd him to encourage her to talk to Ephram, or offer to tell Ephram himself. Who the heck knows lol.

jediwands

I answered over on OT but should have explained again more specifically here too. LOL.


https://www.fanforum.com/106747072-post173.html

But yes, to sum it up, we originally delayed for you when you were in Hawaii and then Betty’s daughter and granddaughter from the Netherlands arrived yesterday and will be here until early August. In addition, an old poster returned recently saying she was rewatching the series and liked our idea for a break so she could catch up. She hasn’t been around again so not sure if she’ll be joining us later but for these reasons we decided to break until Betty’s family goes back home. Betty and her family are hitting the beach and kind of on a mini-vacation so Betty isn’t even going to be home much while they’re here.

But yes, another few weeks. Please go right ahead and watch and take notes and you can simply paste your thoughts.

Jerry D

Thanks Michelle.

jediwands

For me, I don’t really care about his treatment of Andy. Andy deserves criticism. Amy and Delia I’m sensitive to, however. They did nothing to get hurt and confused. When I look at the totality of the situation with Delia and what she endured due to her brother and Madison it pisses me off. She even had to put up with Ephram bailing on her for Europe. She was at such a sensitive age, still without her mother. Ephram took care of his little sister in S1. I loved it. It’s why I fell for him so quickly, his sensitive soul. After that, not as much which was disappointing. With Amy, the not seeing a forever, breaking up, I hate how it all goes against what we witnessed before this time. I can’t stand how not even once Amy isn’t asked how she is doing over the news. I just can’t help it… she’s treated terribly throughout.

Madison and Andy are the villains in this story, not Amy and Delia. It seems like Amy and Delia were affected the most, inexplicably.

LOL. Yes, I think you’re right. Madison definitely expected some emotional support from Andy. She was startled finding out he was willing to give her financial support only if she just went away.

jediwands

Welcome.

Alexa

Im catching up with some other things but i probably will finish the season because my ocd is flaring lmao.

But its not Ephrams responsibility to look after Delia? And many kids lose their older siblings when they go off to college. So to me, Delia is not a factor in this. Its not like their mom just died, its been a few years now. And its soley andy's responsibility to care for Delia right now. Doesnt mean Ephram can just not call etc when he's gone, but he can't stay purely because of how he thinks itll affect Delia, he has to think about himself and what he needs. I 100% support ephrams decision to leave and take some time to himself. So he can grow and mature.

If anything, Ephram being gone can help delia and andy get closer because andy does spend a lot of his time/energy on ephram. Thats on Andy again, not Ephram.

Again, cant really comment on the amy sitaution until the later episodes. This episode specifically, I felt like amy was pushing Ephram away unintentionally with how she was acting in regards to the pregnancy, so i feel that they both were at fault for the break up in this episode.

jediwands

Definitely Andy’s responsibility to take care of Delia. 100%. Their situation is a little unique and Ephram understood this. Their mother suddenly dies and their father moved them from NYC to a small town in middle America. It was quite a change for Delia. Ephram is not primarily responsible for his sister, but he certainly did not help the situation at times. The confusion she endured during S2 over his relationship with Madison never should have happened. Both Ephram and Madison are responsible for that mess. Ephram leaving at the end of S3 didn’t help but he wasn’t responsible for Delia, no. Still, she was indirectly affected.

Delia is Andy’s responsibility, 100%. Ephram leaving at the end of S3 was the right thing to do for everyone involved even if Delia was concerned. I find it interesting that Ephram returns immediately realizing he wanted Amy back because he loves her and understands he mistreated her during the baby reveal. I didn’t blame Amy one bit for not trusting him immediately and it took a while for Amy to trust Ephram again.

The good news is the trip to Europe did mature Ephram a great deal, so it was the best thing for him. In fact, I wish he would have left even sooner than he did.

Jerry D

I don't think that anyone was saying that it was Ephram's responsibility to look after Delia, but the fact remains that he was her older brother that she loved and looked up to, and his illicit relationship with Madison did have an effect on Delia, and she saw how miserable he was with Madison, to the point where she ended up firing Madison as her babysitter because she saw how unhappy Madison was making Ephram. He also treated Delia badly at times when he was with Madison and he used her as an excuse to get Madison back at one point. Then, in the aftermath of Madisongate, Ephram leaves for Europe, which also undoubtedly had an effect on Delia.

jediwands

You said it way better than I could, Jerry. Exactly what I was trying to say.

In 4.2, there is a reason why the Ephram/Amy and Ephram/Delia interaction is what carried the episode. This episode brought you back to S1 and the interaction between both pairings because it was understood that these are the two pairings (in addition to father/son) that suffered the most during the baby revelation and Ephram going to Europe.

Alexa

Yes but what, is Ephram not supposed to date or have a love life because of how it will affect Delia? That is silly. If Delia got attached to Madison, that is kind of on her a bit (and Madison imo who should never have gotten involved with Ephram, but we cant have miles of discussions on that and have already lol) but Ephram is a 16 year old boy, of course hes not gonna put his sister over his love life.

Maybe i just find it kind of a moot point because I hated my siblings growing up and couldn't care less about their love lives or how mine would affect them, we just did what we wanted to do...

To be kind of frank, its not really delia's business what Ephram/Madison are doing really. I mean, at the time, it wasnt like they were planning to get married/have a baby (even though that ended up happening) btu as far as they both new it was just a fling/fun relationship. Delia shouldnt be hearing anything about it period or really have an opinion on it because it wasnt supposed to affect her life.

Of course, when he found out she actually had a baby, and that made Delia an aunt, then YES, it did affect her, but its not like thats what Ephram was planning lol. Not that it would affect her regardless because at the end of the days its ephram's life and child, not delias.

I never got a choice in my sisters decisions to have kids. She had them, and now I am aunt and have a lot of responsibility thrust on me that I didnt exactly ask for, but well, its her life, so of course shes gonna live it how she wants.

Anyways, my point being that i dont think its fair to bash Ephram for this now too? It just kinda feels like yall are finding reasons to dislike Ephram right now.

Jerry D

I don't think that we're just purposely finding reasons to dislike Ephram right now. We're simply stating our opinions on these episodes and the actions of the characters in these episodes. Maybe our views of Ephram are colored by the fact that we know what's coming next, but the bottom line for me at least is that he unfairly lashed out at and broke up with Amy and he broke her heart for no good reason. I think that we've all been pretty fair in these commentaries, but Ephram's actions in these episodes are hard to watch, and it's hard for me at least to condone what he did to Amy. It's your right to view his actions differently than some of us do, and we welcome and respect differences of opinion in these episode discussions. I also think that since we're in a hiatus right now we're analyzing this episode more because it's the last one that we watched before the break that we're on, and this episode took place right after the Madisongate reveal, where Ephram was hurt and angry and lashing out at the ones closest to him. Later, he'll move on and so will we.

jediwands

Exactly, Jerry. Being on hiatus puts us in limbo and stuck on the current storyline without movement.

I will never give Ephram a free pass here because Ephram, himself, comes back from Europe realizing he really messed up. He knows this and since we’ve already seen the episodes we know Ephram understands later he treated Amy like garbage and had no right going there. He laughs in her face about not seeing a forever, he hurts her so much and I’ll never be okay with this.

As for Delia… Andy hired Madison to do a job. Madison became romantically interested in Andy’s underage son on the job. Ephram returned the feelings. They did all of this in front of Delia who, at times was stuck in the middle and even used for their weird relationship. Sickening. Delia never asked for it to be her business, Ephram and Madison put it on display right in front of her which was so wrong on so many levels. She was just a young girl. So Ephram and Madison made it Delia’s business. Delia was the only true adult out of the three when she fired Madison.

I just can’t say I like Ephram very much during this time but most importantly Ephram admits later on he didn’t like Ephram during this time.

Alexa

but it doesnt matter if they put it in front of Delia becasue its not delias business regardless. It doesnt matter if they are romantic or not imo. Delia should just stay out of it. Andy knew about the relationship and allowed it to continue in the house in front of Delia so thats 100% on andy.

This is an exaggeration Michelle. He does not laugh in her face or anything of the sort. They are simply on different pages regarding a very serious thing in his life...

How can you honestly love someone and want to be with them when they don't understand your feelings about your own child???

If I found out I had a child and my girlfriend was very obviously irritated about it and didnt support me in wanting to see the kid (you can say amy was supportive but she really wasnt. she made her passive aggressive feelings pretty dang obvious) i would be irritated and frustrated and i cant say i would want to stay with that person either.



As far as the break up goes, it was mutual as far as I understood it. There was never even a real convo about it? They just fought and then she left, so was it even really a break up? I found the whole thing confusing.


I think I will put my other thoughts on pause until the next episode because we are kind of talking in circles. But I will say IN THIS EPISODE i think that both amy and ephram were at fault for different things.

jediwands

Delia was directly forced into something she shouldn’t have had to deal with. Madison was an employee in the house. All kinds of wrong. Just hated it. In my mind, Andy, Madison ON THE JOB, and Ephram all played a part.

Regarding that scene between Ephram and Amy and the infinity necklace… I can tell you when that episode aired nearly 95% of the fandom was so pissed off at Ephram for what he did to Amy so I am not the only one specifically irritated by his reaction to her thinking that they would be together forever. It was so cruel. The majority of the audience was so ticked. I hate that scene so much I don’t even want to watch it again. Emily is amazing which makes it so much more heartbreaking for the fanbase. They are already broken up there, Amy just wanted clarification and to give him back the infinity necklace he gave her. A bit confusing he would give her that spiritual “eternal” necklace and then claim he never saw forever. That made no sense and it’s why Amy was heartbroken and most of the audience was upset.

Regarding Amy’s reaction to a baby Ephram had with Madison… I’m not really sure how she should have acted. Ephram going up to the door of the adopted parents who are now the babies real parents was not something Amy thought was realistic and rightfully so. I honestly don’t know how Amy was meant to react. Amy didn’t have the answers and it sure as hell was an uncomfortable spot she was in. Ephram should have talked more to Madison or pursued things legally but Amy, who did nothing wrong, should not be expected to be the perfect girlfriend in this instance… honestly, what a complicated situation and one that Ephram was better off handling legally if he chose to go there.

All I also know is Ephram himself admits he was in the wrong concerning Amy and he tells Andy as much at the beginning of S4. So I guess I believe Ephram.

But yes, we can move on from the discussion and pick it up when the next episodes get going.

Jerry D

Well said, Michelle, and I completely agree with everything that you've said.