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Old 06-20-2022, 08:06 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Alexa (View Post)
I just finished the episode and wow, it was good. Sad, yes, but good.

I am so sorry but I just cannot get on board with the Ephram criticism in this thread. I just can't. Put yourself in his shoes. You find out you have a child, that you are a father, and the mother lied about it. Didn't put your name on your own childs birth certificate and gave the child up for adoption without your consent. To make matters worse, you find out your father pressured her to do this, and not only that but your g/f and g/fs father also both knew about it before you did. I am sorry, but Ephram imo has every right to upset!

I actually felt he was handling the situation very well at the start of the episode, being open and honest with Amy about wanting to find his son, and i would have been doing THE EXACT same thing. The fact that he doesn't even know what this kid looks like or where he is??? He deserves to know. He was also EXTREMELY calm the entire episode even though it was obvious that he and Amy were on different pages about everything. I appreciate that he didnt blow up at anyone and talked calmy.

Amy really pissed me off this episode. She was acting so snotty when Ephram revealed he wanted to find his son and not supportive in the slightest. You could tell from her comments and facial expressions that she just wanted Ephram to let it go. How could he??? If it was my boyfriend, and he just found out this life changing news, I would 100% be supportive and at his side wanting to get information about this kid. It doesnt mean I would support him fighting for custody necesarily (but I would if its what he wanted) but I would definitely support him wanting to at least have contact with his child. Both the child and Ephram deserve that. Madison may have made the choice for herself not to see the child, but Ephram never did.

And then to make things even worse, Amy goes and gets that 2nd audition for Ephram without even talking to him??? like he said, it was only a week. He clearly changed his mind about Juliard and she was pressuring him just to forget everything and go back to his old life, when he was not in the head space for it. It really angered me how mad she was getting at him, when none of this situation was his fault. I dont really blame Ephram asking Amy to leave because imo she clearly wasn't getting it and she wasn't being the support system that Ephram needed.

The only thing I did side with Amy over was the ending litle argument aobut her knowing about Madison and saying it was the same. It def. wasnt the same as Andy knowing. She only knew for a few days and didnt want to ruin his auition. So that, i did get Amy's POV on, but regardless, i think Ephram has a right to be upset and take some time with his feelings. Hes not going to magically get over this in a few weeks.

Ephram is what, 17/18 now? He is old enough to leave the State if he wants to, without needing to tell his father where he is going. Again, I didnt blame Ephram for telling Andy he would be leaving soon. Was it a bit dramatic, maybe, but he IS going to be graduating soon and if he needs time to deal with the betrayal then I understand that.

Harold was so confusing this episode. First he allows Ephram to stay but then asks that he leave basically. Then he tells Amy that they should just break up, just to in the end give her encouraging words. How confusing can he be??? lol.

I don't really understand why Ephram didn't go up to the door, btu maybe he realized that the child seemed to be in good hands (though there is no true way of knowing that). I am glad the woman behind the desk was kind to him and helped him out. But she needed to tell him what steps to take to be listed as the official father on the birth certificate.

Andy had such a horrible episode. i dont blame Delia at all for acting how she acted. It IS always about Ephram and she wanted to spend some time with her dad and he goes and invites Jake/Nina (without Sam) over and then fights with them, then bails on the entire project just because he's jealous about jake and nina. Then he finished the room for her??? What the hell. That "tantrum" was well deserved. I am glad that Andy realized his mistake in the end and apologized to her and then they spent time just hanging out, which is what Delia wanted all along. Speaking of, are they going to tell Delia about Madison and Ephram?

Andy has been ignoring Nina for how long, and she finally goes and dates someone else and now hes acting jealous???? Boy byeeeee you had your chance so many times to say something to Nina. Goodness, hes frustrating. I really hate to say it beacuse i do love andy/nina but I am honestly on Jakes side during this whole rewatch. He hasn't bothered me at all really other than his screen time taking over some of my other favs. But in general hes been a pretty level-headed, nice guy. (sans that one episode when he acted like a jerk with his ex gf)

Hannah/Topher are cute but I don't feel a spark. She def. has way more chemistry with Bright. Their friendship is nice. But the praying stuff has got to stop. . With that said, I couldn't find myself really caring about Hannah this episode with everything else going on.

Top 5 this episode:
1. Ephram
2. Delia
3. Jake
4. Nina
5. Amy (despite me being angry with her I do see her POV and her own way she was trying her best to be supportive at first)


Onto 19 and I will save my notes. Prob. will watch 20 as well since thats the end of the current disk i am on.
Great thoughts, you give a different perspective. It allows me to evaluate how pissed off I was at Ephram watching the episode. LOL. The totality of everything Ephram pulls throughout the season hit me like a bomb: Taking the Juilliard summer program out on Amy at the beginning of the season, lying to Amy and manipulating in order to see Madison's band behind her back (he truly is lucky Amy didn't dump him), Princeton application which is 100% similar to Amy wanting to wait until he got back from NYC, and then the baby situation… not thinking about how his actions in S2 had consequences even for a second… if my mom and dad strongly encouraged me not to do something and I still did it (not to mention something very illegal) and the end result was the worst possible outcome I’d feel like a fool and total failure. It is bizarre to me Ephram does not on the fly evaluate any of this, even for a second. He does later, which is why he gives Andy, Amy and even Madison apologies all around. Maybe that’s why it infuriates me… we know the end result… Ephram returns from Europe 100% understanding Amy did absolutely nothing wrong and he wants her back. He knows that he mistreated Amy and had no business breaking up with her. So he even admits his actions in this episode and surrounding episodes are inappropriate and not right at all. He even understands that his father isn’t the demon that he’s making him out to be as well. Better late than never but nevertheless, it is tough to watch all of this go down, not just this storyline but multiple storylines throughout the season. Ephram’s wisdom after going to Europe really tells the story on if what he’s doing at the moment is appropriate or not.

I agree with the rest of your thoughts on Andy having a terrible episode with Delia, with Nina, and for all the reasons you listed.

Yes, that's the thing with Hannah and Topher... cute, but the spark is not there. Plus, I find it really weird he knew about her father and nothing was discussed on why, how, or what the deal was with that situation.

Sounds good!

Amazing you can watch the episodes while being so busy. THAT is dedication.

Last edited by jediwands; 06-20-2022 at 12:37 PM
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Old 06-20-2022, 08:42 AM
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Okay, so we will proceed with 3.19 this coming Sunday.
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Old 06-20-2022, 08:11 PM
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This was an extremely difficult episode for me to watch and write about, as the theme was very aptly titled Fallout, as we witnessed the fallout of Ephram receiving the news that he had gotten Madison pregnant and she had their baby without telling him, all due to Andy telling her not to tell him and sending her away. We saw Ephram take out his hurt and anger on not only Andy, but on Amy, the person who loved him with all of her heart, and that fallout had repercussions which reverberated through this episode and would also reverberate through the rest of this series.

We saw Ephram wake up on the couch at Amy’s house, and Harold told Ephram that Andy was concerned about him and that he needed to get home, but Ephram contemptuously replied that Andy’s concern was “too little too late.”

We then saw Ephram tell Amy how he kept replaying what happened with Madison in his mind and that three days ago everything was perfect, but then it had all fallen apart as Amy offered him her loving support, and he said that she was the only person that he could trust.

We saw Andy confide to Nina what had happened with Ephram and that he needed to refocus on what he had missed in his life due to harboring Madison’s secret and getting involved with yet another emotionally unavailable person, and he seemed to want to direct his focus on Nina, but then he learned to his dismay that she was now involved with Jake.

We saw Hannah and Bright together as he had picked her up at the airport after visiting her family, and he teased her about her diary, and she told him when her father first got Huntington’s Disease she had prayed that God would cure his disease, and Bright said that we didn’t know what God could or couldn’t do, and that maybe we prayed for insurance, just in case it works, and Hannah replied that maybe God had answered her prayers in a different way by making her not have the gene that causes Huntington’s Disease, maybe her prayers were too late for her father but they had saved her instead.

We saw Ephram talking obsessively about the baby and how he wanted to find him, but he didn’t want to ask Madison for more details because he didn’t want to talk to her or forgive her or forgive Andy. I loved how Amy was there for Ephram but he was too blinded by the news that he had received to appreciate her loving support.

We then saw Andy shopping with Delia, who wanted to repaint her room, but then they ran into Jake and Nina at the store, and Andy decided to organize a painting party with the ulterior motive of finding more information about Jake and Nina’s relationship, much to Delia’s dismay.

We saw Harold talk to Amy, who was up late finding information for Ephram, and Amy talked about how she felt helpless as Ephram was suffering so much and he advised that she step back and let Ephram work this out on his own, and Amy reacted harshly to his well-meaning advice.

Armed with the information that Amy had given him, Ephram went to Denver to try and track down his baby, but when he got to the adoption agency, he found out that Madison didn’t list him as the father of their baby when she gave him up for adoption so he had no legal avenue to find out where his baby was, and Ephram was distraught at this news, but the person who worked at the adoption agency took pity on him and told him the county in California where his baby was living.

Back in Delia’s room, we saw Andy asking Nina and Jake about their relationship, and Delia, seeing what was going on and seeing how Andy had commandeered her project, grew increasingly angry. Jake then let it slip about Ephram, and Andy lashed out at Jake, and Andy abruptly ended the painting party, and he said that he was going to hire a contractor to paint Delia’s room. We then saw Delia lash out at Andy because he had totally rearranged her room without consulting her about it and he had picked a color for her room that wasn’t her choice and that she hated it, and Delia lashed out at Andy and she said, correctly, that everything revolved around Ephram and all she wanted to do was paint her room, but then he obnoxiously took over her project and he organized a painting party that she didn’t want and then he totally redid her room without her input or permission, showing, once again, how out of touch Andy was concerning the needs of his children and how his tendency to take over their lives just caused them to resent him, and in Ephram’s case it had disastrous results.

We saw Ephram tell Amy what had happened and she asked him how far he intended to take this, but Ephram wouldn’t listen to anything she was saying as he was completely focused on his own pain and anguish and he had no consideration for anyone else, including her, but Amy, with her heart in the right place and wanting what was best for Ephram, arranged to get him another audition at Julliard, but this backfired on her as he turned the chance down because he was going to California to try and see his baby, ignoring and not appreciating all the effort that she had made on his behalf, and she accidentally blurted out that she knew about Madison’s pregnancy just before he left for New York, and she intended to tell him about it when he got back, but she had no idea that Madison was in New York and that she was going to tell him about the baby right before his audition, so she wanted him to have another chance to get that audition, but instead of being grateful to her for what she had done, he cruelly lashed out at her and he told her to get out.

We saw Hannah tell Bright how frustrated she was with God and he told her that she wasn’t looking for answers and she was just hiding out from having to live her life, and that she was still afraid, and she got angry at Bright and told him to shut up, and she left in a huff, but as we later saw with Topher, Bright’s words did have a positive effect on her and she asked Topher out after confiding in him about her father (whose situation he already knew about) and telling him that she needed to take more risks.

I liked seeing Andy confide in Nina about his issues with Ephram and how Ephram wouldn’t talk to him, and Nina correctly told him that those issues were spilling over into every other part of his life, and that he needed to talk to Ephram. I loved the advice she gave him and as always, I loved seeing her be there for Andy as a supportive friend even though he had inadvertently hurt her in the past.

My heart broke for Amy as she sat in her car crying, and Harold went out to see her and he sat next to her and she tearfully told him that her and Ephram had broken up, and when Harold apologized for what he had told her earlier, she told him that she understood and that he was trying to protect her because he loved her, and that when you love someone you try to protect them and keep them away from all the bad stuff but it just doesn’t work, and Ephram’s cruel words and treatment of her had left her heartbroken and devastated, and no matter how much Ephram was hurting, he never should have taken everything out on Amy like he did.

We saw Andy stand up to Delia and refuse to let her eat in her room, saying that they needed to do things as a family and he told her that he makes mistakes and he tried to take an interest in her life and how she was conversing with her friends on her computer, and Delia’s angry wall broke down and everything seemed to be okay between her and Andy again, at least for now.

We saw Ephram take a cab to the house where his baby was living, but then he changed his mind and he didn’t go into the house and he told the cabdriver to take him back to the airport, as I feel he realized that nothing good could come out of his intruding in on the life of a son that he never knew that he had, and for the only time in the episode, I feel that he made the right decision.

Things didn’t end so well between Andy and Ephram however as Andy tried a similar “tough love” tactic with Ephram when he got back from California, but Ephram refused to listen to him and he coldly said that he would be leaving soon.

Overall, this was a very hard episode to watch as the fallout of Madisongate had a devastating effect on the key relationships on the show with more pain and heartache soon to come.
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Old 06-21-2022, 01:20 AM
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Taking the Juilliard summer program out on Amy at the beginning of the season, lying to Amy and manipulating in order to see Madison's band behind her back (he truly is lucky Amy didn't dump him), Princeton application which is 100% similar to Amy wanting to wait until he got back from NYC
Yes, but these things, Ephram was very clearly in the wrong for, and I totally get the anger at him. But in this specific episode, no. I dont think Ephram did anything to warrant such criticism while Amy is receiving none.

I dont see Ephram submitting the essay as the same because he was just giving Amy multiple options. With the juliard thing, it was like, Ephram HAD to go to the audition at that day and time and if he didn't, he was missing his shot yet again. Him not going is way worse too because him bailing on that school TWICE would thus ruining his chances for down the line even more, in case he does change his mind again. Where as, its not like Amy had to pick Princeton. She had other options.

Also, how did Amy even get the interview? Her phonecall to the school was a complete and utter disaster lol.


Quote:
Ephram returns from Europe 100% understanding Amy did absolutely nothing wrong and he wants her back.
Well thats why I am on board with Ephram going. Had he not gone he would have probably wallowed a lot longer and who knows what else. Really ruined his relationships. Instead he made the smart decision and gave himself time and space to sort things out and he came back more matured and understanding of everything.

Frankly I dont like that Ephram is the only one apologizing in the future episodes (if that is the case, I will need to rewatch) because he shouldnt be. Andy was 100% in the wrong. And IMO Amy is in the wrong this episode too with how she acted. If she didnt want Ephram to see his kid or help raise it that is totally fine, but she needed to be honest about that and not passive agressive with her "support". I fully support Ephram returning and making amends and forgiving Andy and Amy for keeping this secret from him, but I dont think he should apologize for wanting to go to Europe.

I do think the break up with Amy was very rash though, and I do agree that it sucked, but you will get more thoughts on my opinion regarding that in the next episode discussion. I am only referring to right now, in this episode.

Quote:
Amy, with her heart in the right place and wanting what was best for Ephram, arranged to get him another audition at Julliard, but this backfired on her as he turned the chance down because he was going to California to try and see his baby, ignoring and not appreciating all the effort that she had made on his behalf
Amy was on the phone to juliard and i was watching and cringing because i was thinking, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING. it was very obvious that it not what ephram wanted or needed and they never had a conversation about this whatsoever. maybe her heart was in the right place sort of, but persnally I viewed it as her just wanted to breeze through the baby situation and get ephram back to "normal" without sitting and thinking that this was not just an easy situation to ignore and breeze past.

Ephram also did not react poorly to Amy in that moment even though I was just as irritated right there with him. He spoke very calmly to her and tried to explain his reasons why he was done with Juliard... She had no right to schedule this behind his back without even asking what days would work for him? I found that so odd. And even more odd that people in this thread are really defending Amy to this level.

Maybe being more on Amy's side and not understanding Ephram sure, but the level of hate for Epharm right now really makes no sense to me. Where in the episode did he ever handle anything poorly? (Okay, other than telling Amy to leave and that his child was more important (though in his defense I think he is right. Your child should bet he most important thing to you)). That was not Ephrams greatest moment and liKE i said, I did agree with Amy in that BRIEF little period but everything else she did in the episode didn't feel 100% genuine to me. It didnt feel like hse took time to think about what Ephram wanted and needed to get closure on this. She was just trying to push him into this old life to put a bandaid on their problems.


Also Im sorry but how many times did Amy hurt Ephram over the years??? With her constantly putting him in the friend zone and choosing other guys over him but then also sort of leading him on? Amy's made mistakes too. And this is coming from someone who defended Amy constantly through the episodes thus far. So I mean, Ephram is going to make some mistakes too, neither of them are perfect.

Last edited by Alexa; 06-21-2022 at 01:25 AM
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Old 06-21-2022, 07:03 AM
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Alexa, Amy was able to arrange a second audition in Julliard for Ephram because she got in touch with the recruiter at Colorado A & M who was a Julliard graduate who had tried to recruit him, and he pulled some strings to get him another audition.

Yes, Amy hurt Ephram in the past when she was torn between her feelings for Colin and her feelings for him, but what he did to her was far worse than what she did to him in my opinion. It wasn't Amy's fault that he got Madison pregnant and Andy and Madison hid that information from him, and Ephram was stupid and childish to throw away his dream of going to Julliard just to spite Andy, and he was doubly stupid and childish to lash out at Amy for her arranging to give him another chance to pursue his dream. I completely understand that he was upset and angry but he shouldn't have taken it all out on Amy, and he shouldn't have thrown away his future again when she was able to get him another audition to Julliard. The people who adopted his baby weren't going anywhere, but his chance to go to Julliard had a shelf life, which he once again disregarded due to his wallowing in his own anger due to what had happened.

I also don't feel that Ephram should have acted like Amy betrayed him because she found out about Madison's pregnancy right before his Julliard audition, because she knew that would upset him, and like she said, how could she possibly know that Madison would be in New York and that she would drop that bombshell at the worst possible time? Yes, Ephram had every right to be mad at Andy and Madison but he had no right to be mad at Amy, and he had no right to break her heart like he did.
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Old 06-21-2022, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry D (View Post)
This was an extremely difficult episode for me to watch and write about, as the theme was very aptly titled Fallout, as we witnessed the fallout of Ephram receiving the news that he had gotten Madison pregnant and she had their baby without telling him, all due to Andy telling her not to tell him and sending her away. We saw Ephram take out his hurt and anger on not only Andy, but on Amy, the person who loved him with all of her heart, and that fallout had repercussions which reverberated through this episode.
If you watch the first scene between Ephram and Amy when he's on the couch and Amy goes near him, Ephram literally flinches. It is weird. He was almost cringing. I don't understand AT THIS POINT why he's acting like she is a disease. She doesn't try to get him the second audition yet, he doesn't know she found out from Harold about the baby hours before he left for NYC, he doesn't know any of this yet. He goes to her house and asks for her help, stays there, doesn't really care that Harold knows what he did either, and STILL acts like he wants nothing to do with Amy the second he sees her in the morning. It's very strange and frustrating.

Quote:
We saw Ephram wake up on the couch at Amy’s house, and Harold told Ephram that Andy was concerned about him and that he needed to get home, but Ephram contemptuously replied that Andy’s concern was “too little too late.”
It truly shocks me that he isn't embarrassed knowing the father of the girl he claimed to love to Eternity understands as a boy he knocked up an adult woman in his prior relationship and that is what he seems so pissed off about. Doesn't he feel stupid in front of Harold? Instead, he pulls an attitude. I would have felt like such a screw up idiot in that position. Ephram just looks like everyone owes him something.

Quote:
We then saw Ephram tell Amy how he kept replaying what happened with Madison in his mind and that three days ago everything was perfect, but then it had all fallen apart as Amy offered him her loving support, and he said that she was the only person that he could trust.
... that line was set up for the moment he finds out Harold told Amy hours before he left for NYC.

Quote:
We saw Andy confide to Nina what had happened with Ephram and that he needed to refocus on what he had missed in his life due to harboring Madison’s secret and getting involved with yet another emotionally unavailable person, and he seemed to want to direct his focus on Nina, but then he learned to his dismay that she was now involved with Jake.
Andy basically pays attention to Nina at this point when it's convenient for him. Make no mistake, he is jealous and has had feelings for Nina he continues to deny. But since his nightmare ridiculous thing he had going with Amanda ended, now is the time he can focus on Nina again... especially since Ephram is pushing him away. Nina understands all of this too and it has to be frustrating. I love that Andy is jealous over Nina and Jake. He deserves it.

Quote:
We saw Hannah and Bright together as he had picked her up at the airport after visiting her family, and he teased her about her diary, and she told him when her father first got Huntington’s Disease she had prayed that God would cure his disease, and Bright, saying that we didn’t know what God could or couldn’t do, and that maybe we prayed for insurance, just in case it works, and Hannah replied that maybe God had answered her prayers in a different way by making her not have the gene that causes Huntington’s Disease, maybe her prayers were too late for her father but they had saved her instead.
I like that it was Bright who picked Hannah up from the airport.

Quote:
We saw Ephram talking obsessively about the baby and how he wanted to find him, but he didn’t want to ask Madison for more details because he didn’t want to talk to her or forgive her or forgive Andy. I loved how Amy was there for Ephram but he was too blinded by the news that he had received to appreciate her loving support.
Definitely. See, I understand Ephram having "moments" of not being all there and even not embracing his love with Amy. I get it. But overall how he treats her is unbelievable.

Quote:
We then saw Andy shopping with Delia, who wanted to repaint her room, but then they ran into Jake and Nina at the store, and Andy decided to organize a painting party with the ulterior motive of finding more information about Jake and Nina’s relationship, much to Delia’s dismay.
Delia is a sage who just understands every room she walks into and every situation she sees, especially concerning her father who is an open book. LOL.

Quote:
We saw Harold talk to Amy, who was up late finding information for Ephram, and Amy talked about how she felt helpless as Ephram was suffering so much and he advised that she step back and let Ephram work this out on his own, and Amy reacted harshly to his well-meaning advice.
Harold really was all over the place. He told Amy about the baby at the worst possible time, and then while his speech here was to protect her (almost intuitively he knew Ephram was going to treat her like garbage) he had to have known Amy wouldn't react perfectly to his advice. But I think he understood this, even if he had to say it.

Quote:
Armed with the information that Amy had given him, Ephram went to Denver to try and track down his baby, but when he got to the adoption agency, he found out that Madison didn’t list him as the father of their baby when she gave him up for adoption so he had no legal avenue to find out where his baby was, and Ephram was distraught at this news, but the person who worked at the adoption agency took pity on him and told him the county in California where his baby was living.
How did you feel about that scene, Jerry?

1. Why did Madison put that on there? She didn't want Ephram to ever find out? She was scared she would be prosecuted? She truly didn't know?

2. Did you think it was inappropriate for the person who worked at the adoption agency to tell him the county in California?

Quote:
Back in Delia’s room, we saw Andy asking Nina and Jake about their relationship, and Delia, seeing what was going on and seeing how Andy had commandeered her project, grew increasingly angry. Jake then let it slip about Ephram, and Andy lashed out at Jake, and Andy abruptly ended the painting party, and he said that he was going to hire a contractor to paint Delia’s room. We then saw Delia lash out at Andy because he had totally rearranged her room without consulting her about it and he had picked a color for her room that wasn’t her choice and that she hated it, and Delia lashed out at Andy and she said, correctly, that everything revolved around Ephram and all she wanted to do was paint her room, but then he obnoxiously took over her project and he organized a painting party that she didn’t want and then he totally redid her room without her input or permission, showing, once again, how out of touch Andy was concerning the needs of his children and how his tendency to take over their lives just caused them to resent him, and in Ephram’s case it had disastrous results
Andy is lucky Delia turned out as great as she did because she has been criminally ignored for years now. Andy has basically cared about Ephram the most, then Delia, second, when it's a known fact Delia is the one who would have the big time issues not being able to adjust normally due to the loss of her mother as a little girl being thrown into a new city, state, and not having a maternal influence she so desperately needed. She was even bullied in S1. Nina is a great mother figure and so is Edna, but Andy has not had an awareness that Delia needs attention and care too. The entire world doesn't revolve around Ephram, Andy. You have an impressionable daughter to care for. That is why we got ripped off over not receiving a S5 in this way... I have a feeling Andy was going to have his hands full dealing with Delia as a teen and maybe paying the price for ignoring so many key elements after Julia passed away and how Delia suffered as a result.

Quote:
We saw Ephram tell Amy what had happened and she asked him how far he intended to take this, but Ephram wouldn’t listen to anything she was saying as he was completely focused on his own pain and anguish and he had no consideration for anyone else, including her, but Amy, with her heart in the right place and wanting what was best for Ephram, arranged to get him another audition at Julliard, but this backfired on her as he turned the chance down because he was going to California to try and see his baby, ignoring and not appreciating all the effort that she had made on his behalf, and she accidentally blurted out that she knew about Madison’s pregnancy just before he left for New York, and she intended to tell him about it when he got back, but she had no idea that Madison was in New York and that she was going to tell him about the baby right before his audition, so she wanted him to have another chance to get that audition, but instead of being grateful to her for what she had done, he cruelly lashed out at her and he told her to get out.
What did you think of this overall, Jerry?

Quote:
We saw Hannah tell Bright how frustrated he was with God and he told her that she wasn’t looking for answers and she was just hiding out from having to live her life, and that she was still afraid, and she got angry at Bright and told him to shut up, and she left in a huff, but as we later saw with Topher, Bright’s words did have a positive effect on her and she asked Topher out after confiding in him about her father (whose situation he already knew about) and telling him that she needed to take more risks.
Bright and Hannah definitely have chemistry and see each other so perfectly during this time period. I cannot tell if this means they are way better off as friends (since clearly they are romantic feelings though) or they just messed up romantically because sex got in the way for Bright.

Quote:
I liked seeing Andy confide in Nina about his issues with Ephram and how Ephram wouldn’t talk to him, and Nina correctly told him that those issues were spilling over into every other part of his life, and that he needed to talk to Ephram. I loved the advice she gave him and as always, I loved seeing her be there for Andy as a supportive friend even though he had inadvertently hurt her in the past.
It was a great scene.

Quote:
My heart broke for Amy as she sat in her car crying, and Harold went out to see her and he sat next to her and she tearfully told him that her and Ephram had broken up, and when Harold apologized for what he had told her earlier, she told him that she understood and that he was trying to protect her because he loved her, and that when you love someone you try to protect them and keep them away from all the bad stuff but it just doesn’t work, and Ephram’s cruel words and treatment of her had left her heartbroken and devastated, and no matter how much Ephram was hurting, he never should have taken everything out on Amy like he did.
Heartbroken for Amy this entire episode and it only gets worse in the next episode for her when Ephram literally does put the knife in her back.

Quote:
We saw Andy stand up to Delia and refuse to let her eat in her room, saying that they needed to do things as a family and he told her that he makes mistakes and he tried to take an interest in her life and how she was conversing with her friends on her computer, and Delia’s angry wall broke down and everything seemed to be okay between her and Andy again, at least for now.
At least Andy tried there, it was a nice scene but so much between them should have been in action before this time, and certainly after this moment as well.

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We saw Ephram take a cab to the house where his baby was living, but then he changed his mind and he didn’t go into the house and he told the cabdriver to take him back to the airport, as I feel he realized that nothing good could come out of his intruding in on the life of a son that he never knew that he had, and for the only time in the episode, I feel that he made the right decision.
Same. Say what you want about Madison but she seemed very confident that the parents of the baby are going to be amazing parents based on who they are overall. He was put in a wonderful home and they are now his real parents for as difficult as this reality is for Ephram to digest.

Quote:
Things didn’t end so well between Andy and Ephram however as Andy tried a similar “tough love” tactic with Ephram when he got back from California, but Ephram refused to listen to him and he coldly said that he would be leaving soon.
Chilling moment.

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Overall, this was a very hard episode to watch as the fallout of Madisongate had a devastating effect on the key relationships on the show with more pain and heartache soon to come.
Agreed.

Last edited by jediwands; 06-21-2022 at 09:26 AM
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Old 06-21-2022, 09:03 AM
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Alexa, Amy was able to arrange a second audition in Julliard for Ephram because she got in touch with the recruiter at Colorado A & M who was a Julliard graduate who had tried to recruit him, and he pulled some strings to get him another audition.

Yes, Amy hurt Ephram in the past when she was torn between her feelings for Colin and her feelings for him, but what he did to her was far worse than what she did to him in my opinion. It wasn't Amy's fault that he got Madison pregnant and Andy and Madison hid that information from him, and Ephram was stupid and childish to throw away his dream of going to Julliard just to spite Andy, and he was doubly stupid and childish to lash out at Amy for her arranging to give him another chance to pursue his dream. I completely understand that he was upset and angry but he shouldn't have taken it all out on Amy, and he shouldn't have thrown away his future again when she was able to get him another audition to Julliard. The people who adopted his baby weren't going anywhere, but his chance to go to Julliard had a shelf life, which he once again disregarded due to his wallowing in his own anger due to what had happened.

I also don't feel that Ephram should have acted like Amy betrayed him because she found out about Madison's pregnancy right before his Julliard audition, because she knew that would upset him, and like she said, how could she possibly know that Madison would be in New York and that she would drop that bombshell at the worst possible time? Yes, Ephram had every right to be mad at Andy and Madison but he had no right to be mad at Amy, and he had no right to break her heart like he did.
I second everything you said here, Jerry. My thoughts are yours.

I love that you have a different opinion from us, Alexa. That is what this series allows... different opinions on really tough topics. I completely agree with you that Ephram going to Europe was a VERY good idea. It really was the best thing for him to do even if the timing might not have been perfect given Rose's cancer and what Bright and Amy were struggling with. But overall, he needed it and I love how he returned such a mature, wise, calm, and intellectual young man. He really did turn from a boy to a young man upon his return and I loved this so much.

Even if we see Ephram's actions differently during this time period, we are all on the same page again in S4 which Everwood is good for, too.

Last edited by jediwands; 06-21-2022 at 09:14 AM
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Old 06-21-2022, 09:31 AM
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Yes, Amy hurt Ephram in the past when she was torn between her feelings for Colin and her feelings for him, but what he did to her was far worse than what she did to him in my opinion. It wasn't Amy's fault that he got Madison pregnant and Andy and Madison hid that information from him, and Ephram was stupid and childish to throw away his dream of going to Julliard just to spite Andy, and he was doubly stupid and childish to lash out at Amy for her arranging to give him another chance to pursue his dream. I completely understand that he was upset and angry but he shouldn't have taken it all out on Amy, and he shouldn't have thrown away his future again when she was able to get him another audition to Julliard. The people who adopted his baby weren't going anywhere, but his chance to go to Julliard had a shelf life, which he once again disregarded due to his wallowing in his own anger due to what had happened.

I also don't feel that Ephram should have acted like Amy betrayed him because she found out about Madison's pregnancy right before his Julliard audition, because she knew that would upset him, and like she said, how could she possibly know that Madison would be in New York and that she would drop that bombshell at the worst possible time? Yes, Ephram had every right to be mad at Andy and Madison but he had no right to be mad at Amy, and he had no right to break her heart like he did.
I totally agree with this and I am a die-hard Ephram fan. Epham was not thinking straight here...blaming Amy for his woes when all she did was love him and try to protect him all while being devasted by the news of Madison's pregancy. And...skipping on Julliard was so Stupid on Ephram's part...made no sense. Ephram remarked that Julliard made him think of what happened and he lost all interest. How ridiculous. Get over yourself, Ephram. Who are you punishing here?
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Old 06-21-2022, 10:24 AM
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If you watch the first scene between Ephram and Amy when he's on the couch and Amy goes near him, Ephram literally flinches. It is weird. He was almost cringing. I don't understand AT THIS POINT why he's acting like she is a disease. She doesn't try to get him the second audition yet, he doesn't know she found out from Harold about the baby hours before he left for NYC, he doesn't know any of this yet. He goes to her house and asks for her help, stays there, doesn't really care that Harold knows what he did either, and STILL acts like he wants nothing to do with Amy the second he sees her in the morning. It's very strange and frustrating.
It was definitely very strange and frustrating. I think that he was so focused on himself and his hurt feelings that he didn't want to interact with anyone.

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It truly shocks me that he isn't embarrassed knowing the father of the girl he claimed to love to Eternity understands as a boy he knocked up an adult woman in his prior relationship and that is what he seems so pissed off about. Doesn't he feel stupid in front of Harold? Instead, he pulls an attitude. I would have felt like such a screw up idiot in that position. Ephram just looks like everyone owes him something.
One thing that that was always consistent about Ephram was that he reacted in a harsh, hurtful and angry way whenever he was hurt, and when he got in one of those moods, he was completely and immaturely focused on himself and he didn’t care about anyone else, and he showed that side of himself in spades in this episode.

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... that line was set up for the moment he finds out Harold told Amy hours before he left for NYC.
Absolutely.

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Andy basically pays attention to Nina at this point when it's convenient for him. Make no mistake, he is jealous and has had feelings for Nina he continues to deny. But since his nightmare ridiculous thing he had going with Amanda ended, now is the time he can focus on Nina again... especially since Ephram is pushing him away. Nina understands all of this too and it has to be frustrating. I love that Andy is jealous over Nina and Jake. He deserves it.
Yes, Andy took Nina's friendship for granted for so long and it was good to see him get a dose of reality in this episode, as she had moved on from him and was living her own life instead of waiting for Andy to wake up and realize just how wonderful she was.

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I like that it was Bright who picked Hannah up from the airport.
So did I.

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Definitely. See, I understand Ephram having "moments" of not being all there and even not embracing his love with Amy. I get it. But overall how he treats her is unbelievable.
It really is unbelievable. In this episode he seemed to regress to the angry and nasty boy we met in Season One and any progress and maturation that had taken place with him was all swept away.

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Delia is a sage who just understands every room she walks into and every situation she sees, especially concerning her father who is an open book. LOL.
Absolutely, and Andy was so wrong to take over her project just to find out what was going on with Jake and Nina.

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Harold really was all over the place. He told Amy about the baby at the worst possible time, and then while his speech here was to protect her (almost intuitively he knew Ephram was going to treat her like garbage) he had to have known Amy wouldn't react perfectly to his advice. But I think he understood this, even if he had to say it.
I still feel that Harold was so wrong to tell Amy about Madison's pregnancy. He never ever should have gone there, and by doing that he set her up for much more heartbreak.

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How did you feel about that scene, Jerry?

1. Why did Madison put that on there? She didn't want Ephram to ever find out? She was scared she would be prosecuted? She truly didn't know?

2. Did you think it was inappropriate for the person who worked at the adoption agency to tell him the county in California?
1. I think that Madison was probably ashamed (as she should have been) that the father of her child was a 16-year-old boy, and she may have been afraid of the legal ramifications of that, and she may also have done it to get back at Andy, because she was a spiteful person.

2. I do think it was inappropriate for the person at the adoption agency to tell Ephram the county in California where his baby was, and if he had gone to see the couple that had adopted him and introduced himself as the baby's father, she could have gotten in trouble. I was glad that he turned back and didn't go through with his plans to talk to the adoptive parents of his baby.

I think that it's much better that I found out who my birth parents were when I was an adult rather than when I was a kid, as it would have upset me and my parents, especially my mother. Even now, I have mixed feelings about whether I would have wanted to meet my birth parents since they gave me up, especially my birth father as he never told anyone about me while my birth mother apparently regretted giving me up. If I could go back in time, I think that I would have gone to see my birth mother but I wouldn't have gone to see my birth father.

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Andy is lucky Delia turned out as great as she did because she has been criminally ignored for years now. Andy is basically cared about Ephram the most, then Delia, second, when it's a known fact Delia is the one who would have the big time issues not being able to adjust normally due to the loss of her mother. Nina is a great mother figure and so is Edna, but Andy has not had an awareness that Delia needs attention and care too. The entire world doesn't revolve around Ephram, Andy. You have an impressionable daughter to care for. That is why we got ripped off over not receiving a S5 in this way... I have a feeling Andy was going to have his hands full dealing with Delia as a teen and maybe paying the price for ignoring so many key elements after Julia passed away and how Delia suffered as a result.
We saw instances in this episode and especially in Season Four where Delia was going to rebel like Ephram did, but she didn't harbor the deeply rooted resentment that Ephram had toward Andy.

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What did you think of this overall, Jerry?
I think that Ephram was so wrong to treat Amy like he did and he should have realized that her heart was in the right place. Amy had seen how important getting into Julliard was to Ephram and how hard he had worked to get there and she hated seeing him throw it all away.

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Bright and Hannah definitely have chemistry and see each other so perfectly during this time period. I cannot tell if this means they are way better off as friends (since clearly they are romantic feelings though) or they just messed up romantically because sex got in the way for Bright.
I still feel that they were mismatched and they never should have become a romantic couple and they should have just stayed friends.

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It was a great scene.
It really was. Andy and Nina's scenes were some of the only bright spots in this episode.

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Heartbroken for Amy this entire episode and it only gets worse in the next episode for her when Ephram literally does put the knife in her back.
I know. I'm really dreading the next episode.

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At least Andy tried there, it was a nice scene but so much between them should have been in action before this time, and certainly after this moment as well.
I completely agree.

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Same. Say what you want about Madison but she seemed very confident that the parents of the baby are going to be amazing parents, based on what they can give to their new child. He was put in a wonderful home (thanks to Madison and those that helped her, did I just credit Madison, haha?) and they are now his real parents for as difficult as this reality is for Ephram to digest.
I just fainted at my desk because you gave Madison credit for something! Yes, she did seem to find wonderful parents for her and Ephram's baby, and I'm glad that Ephram didn't knock on their door. If we had gotten a Season Five and if Madison had come back to use Ephram to try and get their baby back I would have hated her even more, because that would have been so wrong because by then that baby would have been a toddler who knew who his parents were and to try to rip him away from those parents would have been reprehensible.

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Chilling moment.
It really was. Ephram was so cold and heartless in that scene.

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Agreed.
As much as I dreaded watching this episode, I'm really dreading watching the next episode.
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Old 06-21-2022, 11:42 AM
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One thing that struck me last night (as it often does during this rewatch) is how incredibly talented Emily VanCamp is, especially in this scene between her and Harold:

Quote:
DR. ABBOTT: How long have you been out here?

AMY: About 20 minutes. (a beat) We broke up.

DR. ABBOTT: (sighs) I'm so sorry. And I was out of line the other night.

AMY: It's okay.

Dr. ABBOTT: No. No. No, it wasn't. You didn't ask for any advice. It was ill-considered. I only said that because ...

AMY: You love me. I understand why you did it, Dad. And why you didn't tell me about Madison. Like, you love someone, you just want to protect them you know, like keep them away from all the bad stuff. 'Cause you think that's what's best for them, but it doesn't work.

DR. ABBOTT: Well, there's one thing I know about you and Ephram and that's you have a remarkable pension for working things out. So perhaps given a little time...

AMY: I don't think so. I'm pretty sure it's over.
The wealth of emotions she displayed in this scene was incredible and her and Tom Amandes played off each other so well. This scene also showed me how much Harold loved Amy and how she understood what he was trying to do. It also showed that at that point, Amy was light years ahead of Ephram in terms of maturity and understanding.
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Old 06-21-2022, 02:31 PM
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I totally agree with this and I am a die-hard Ephram fan. Epham was not thinking straight here...blaming Amy for his woes when all she did was love him and try to protect him all while being devasted by the news of Madison's pregancy. And...skipping on Julliard was so Stupid on Ephram's part...made no sense. Ephram remarked that Julliard made him think of what happened and he lost all interest. How ridiculous. Get over yourself, Ephram. Who are you punishing here?
Indeed. It's ridiculous, all around. One can say, shocked, a teen, not mature enough. You were mature enough to impregnate, you absolutely have to face the consequences and your "immaturity" and not acting perfectly as a result is not going to be an appropriate excuse. The way he treated everyone, not just Amy, is appalling. Andy and Amy spent so much time and energy, financially (and of course, unconditional love), to even give him that opportunity at Juilliard and Delia sacrificed as well since their father ignored her so much in favor of Ephram's talent. Amy put him ahead of her and their relationship in how many ways. The LEAST he could have done is attend that second chance audition, for EVERYONE, his entire family and girlfriend, who sacrificed for him. He did not even care. Not to mention, the horrible treatment in general.
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Old 06-21-2022, 04:29 PM
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It was definitely very strange and frustrating. I think that he was so focused on himself and his hurt feelings that he didn't want to interact with anyone.

One thing that that was always consistent about Ephram was that he reacted in a harsh, hurtful and angry way whenever he was hurt, and when he got in one of those moods, he was completely and immaturely focused on himself and he didn’t care about anyone else, and he showed that side of himself in spades in this episode.
100%, and you pointed this out multiple times over the course of this rewatch too.

Quote:
Absolutely.

Yes, Andy took Nina's friendship for granted for so long and it was good to see him get a dose of reality in this episode, as she had moved on from him and was living her own life instead of waiting for Andy to wake up and realize just how wonderful she was.
Absolutely. I think Andy just assumed she would always be there. It was almost like he thought he had time to figure things out with Nina. Like you said, it was a wake up call.

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So did I.

It really is unbelievable. In this episode he seemed to regress to the angry and nasty boy we met in Season One and any progress and maturation that had taken place with him was all swept away.
Exactly right, and like I mentioned, you have consistently pointed this out over the course of the rewatch many times. How he behaves and the one step forward, two steps back.

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Absolutely, and Andy was so wrong to take over her project just to find out what was going on with Jake and Nina.
He was totally in the wrong.

Quote:
I still feel that Harold was so wrong to tell Amy about Madison's pregnancy. He never ever should have gone there, and by doing that he set her up for much more heartbreak.
Exactly right. I remember when the show was live so many people thought he was right to tell her and should have told her a long time ago. The timing was awful, he had no business going there, not when he did, and no matter what, he made a promise to Andy. He is also the reason why Andy waited in the first place. He was ready to tell Ephram and Harold said no because of Ephram and Amy.

Quote:
1. I think that Madison was probably ashamed (as she should have been) that the father of her child was a 16-year-old boy, and she may have been afraid of the legal ramifications of that, and she may also have done it to get back at Andy, because she was a spiteful person.
Makes complete sense too.

Quote:
2. I do think it was inappropriate for the person at the adoption agency to tell Ephram the county in California where his baby was, and if he had gone to see the couple that had adopted him and introduced himself as the baby's father, she could have gotten in trouble. I was glad that he turned back and didn't go through with his plans to talk to the adoptive parents of his baby.
100%. Imagine the lawsuit the adopted and real parents would have had if Ephram knocked on that door and they found out how he found where they lived.

Quote:
I think that it's much better that I found out who my birth parents were when I was an adult rather than when I was a kid, as it would have upset me and my parents, especially my mother. Even now, I have mixed feelings about whether I would have wanted to meet my birth parents since they gave me up, especially my birth father as he never told anyone about me while my birth mother apparently regretted giving me up. If I could go back in time, I think that I would have gone to see my birth mother but I wouldn't have gone to see my birth father.


Quote:
We saw instances in this episode and especially in Season Four where Delia was going to rebel like Ephram did, but she didn't harbor the deeply rooted resentment that Ephram had toward Andy.
That's so true. Andy is so lucky. I feel he took advantage of her as a result.

Quote:
I think that Ephram was so wrong to treat Amy like he did and he should have realized that her heart was in the right place. Amy had seen how important getting into Julliard was to Ephram and how hard he had worked to get there and she hated seeing him throw it all away.
Agreed.

Quote:
I still feel that they were mismatched and they never should have become a romantic couple and they should have just stayed friends.
Yes, I think they are cute as friends. You could even make a case that they have a good sibling type of dynamic too. If the writers were going there romantically, it should have been written differently because what they have now works but once they cross that line things completely change. Yes, that happens in real life when you go from friends to romance (things change) but for people who are meant to be, it is a smooth transition. It was never a smooth transition with Bright and Hannah, unfortunately.

Quote:
It really was. Andy and Nina's scenes were some of the only bright spots in this episode.
Definitely.

Quote:
I know. I'm really dreading the next episode.
Me too.

Quote:
I completely agree.

I just fainted at my desk because you gave Madison credit for something! Yes, she did seem to find wonderful parents for her and Ephram's baby, and I'm glad that Ephram didn't knock on their door. If we had gotten a Season Five and if Madison had come back to use Ephram to try and get their baby back I would have hated her even more, because that would have been so wrong.


Quote:
It really was. Ephram was so cold and heartless in that scene.
Greg was so good in that scene. I felt like I was watching a serial killer documentary, the lack of empathy and cold, chilling warning by Ephram was stunning.

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As much as I dreaded watching this episode, I'm really dreading watching the next episode.
I completely agree. It doesn't get any better, it gets worse.
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Old 06-21-2022, 04:52 PM
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One thing that struck me last night (as it often does during this rewatch) is how incredibly talented Emily VanCamp is, especially in this scene between her and Harold:



The wealth of emotions she displayed in this scene was incredible and her and Tom Amandes played off each other so well. This scene also showed me how much Harold loved Amy and how she understood what he was trying to do. It also showed that at that point, Amy was light years ahead of Ephram in terms of maturity and understanding.


I could not agree more!

I noticed on the past rewatch many people were talking about Emily's talent. S2 and the Amy depression storyline was highlighted and even critics raved over Emily. But when you watch her in S3, she is also flawless. She is amazing. Her talent is so unlike the norm, she is incredibly gifted and mesmerizing on the screen.

Yes, indeed, 100%, Amy was light years ahead of Ephram when it comes to maturity and understanding. Amy evolved slowly but surely in the mature department. Ephram reverted. Any progress he made just kept getting erased and that is the sad part.
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Old 06-21-2022, 06:42 PM
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100%, and you pointed this out multiple times over the course of this rewatch too.
I guess I tend to repeat myself!

Seriously, though, I've really noticed this pattern with Ephram, especially in the earlier seasons: Just when you think that he's made progress, or him and Andy have made progress, all that progress gets wiped away in the next episode and we're all back to square one. It frustrates me to no end to see that, and I've especially seen that in this rewatch.
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Old 06-22-2022, 04:45 AM
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But its not about getting Madison pregnant... that is an entirely different issue. It's about the fact that he was never told.

Had Madison told him about the baby they could ahve come to a decision together and he still could have been on track to play piano and attend his audition. Her telling him right before is what threw everything off. So after that, circumstances changed entirely.

If Ephram was acting like a jerk this whole time, or even after learning the news (if he was told right away) that would be different.

Quote:
he shouldn't have taken it all out on Amy, and he shouldn't have thrown away his future again when she was able to get him another audition to Julliard.
But this is a decision that only Ephram needs to make and he clearly didnt want Juliard or the piano anymore. Was it dumb, uh yeah, after all the work he did to get there, but, it doesn't matter beasue its no ones decision but his. If i decided I didnt want to go to college and my boyfriend went and applied for me to all these schools I would be pretty upset with him. Was it nice for him to do, sure, but its not what i wanted, and him going behidn my back about it, i wouldn't appreciate.

And again, it was Amy just trying to ignore the problem of Ephram having a child and trying to keep things "normal" between them. She was hoping if he went to this audition and got back on track he could just forget about his kid and she wasn't taking into account at ALL how huge of a deal this was. Having a child otu there in the world isnt just something you can try to ignore or expect somone to move on from?

Maybe i view things differently because i could never ever give a child up for adoption. To me, adoption is worse than abortion. I would ahte the idea of having my child out there and them not knowing who their birth parents were.


I really dont think that Ephram was punishing Amy. At least, he wasn't trying to. They were just on totally differnet pages after this. And Amy really wasn't getting it, imo. Had Ephram yelled at her, or blamed her, or lashed out, or whatever, then sure, I would be pissed at him, but he didn't do any of that. Like i said, he spoke very calmy and rationally with her the entire episode. He was trying to make her understand his perspective and what he wanted.



Just because you know something is good for someone else doesnt mean you can make decisions for them. I think that my brother would be better off getting a decent job, to quit smoking pot, and to stop listening to conspiracy theorists, lol but at the end of the day its his life and he's gonna do what he chooses to do. Im not gonna go behidn his back and aply to jobs for him.

Ephram didnt ask Andy to hide things from him and buy all that stuff. He didn't ask Amy to try to get a 2nd audition for him. They did those things on their own. But ti wasn't what he wanted anymore. He was in an entirely different headspace after what happened.
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