jediwands

I meant you brilliantly noticed a pattern with Ephram.

Yes. Exactly. It is frustrating because Ephram is a great character and Greg plays him beautifully. You want to pull for Ephram at all times because he has a good heart.

Did you ever get the impression that Ephram felt entitled and spoiled? Not that he flaunted or cared about money. For example, look where they lived in NYC and all the fancy restaurants, etc. He basically got whatever he wanted. So having the means to become a great musician was never a question. He didn’t have to worry about ditching that second audition Amy fought like hell to get for him because he wasn’t ever with a mentality of worrying about money or opportunities. He took off for Europe certainly not with his own money, it was Andy’s. I wonder if money always growing on trees due to Andy’s wealth had something to do how long it took Ephram not to take those many steps back.

jediwands

I kind of understand why Amy was trying to act like everything was OK or they would get through this. I just felt so badly for her because Ephram asked her to help him… his words… will you help me and that is what she was trying to do in her own way that apparently only pissed Ephram off more.

I never got the impression that Madison would ever take Ephram’s opinions to heart so I’m not convinced if she told Ephram about the baby she’d start listening to him at that point either. There is a reason Madison went to Andy and not Ephram from the start. He was not mature enough in her mind to handle the news or else she would have gone to him in the first place.

Jerry D

That's an excellent point Michelle and I hadn't even considered that. Yes, if Madison thought that Ephram was mature enough to handle the news that she was pregnant she would have gone to him first.

I understand and respect what you're saying Alexa, but as someone who was put up for adoption when I was a baby myself, I can't and won't judge or look down on anyone who decides to put their baby up for adoption. Each case is different, and everyone's circumstances are different. I think that in many cases a young woman may not have the means to bring up a child, and the father may be missing or unwilling to take on the responsibility of being a parent, so that young woman had to make the choice to put her child up for adoption in the best interests of the child, and maybe in the best interests for herself, because raising a child as a single mother with little means of support would be very difficult, and that young woman and her child might have to live in poverty if the young woman didn't have people to support and help her. In Madison's case, I do feel that her decision to give up her child for adoption was in the best interest of the child and it was in her best interest as well. Madison was very young, and the father of her baby was a 16-year-old kid, and an immature 16-year-old kid at that, and his behavior when he was with Madison and after he found that that Madison had his baby and put him up for adoption clearly demonstrated that he was in no way ready to take on the responsibility of being a father, and for that matter, Madison was pretty immature herself for dating and sleeping with a 16-year-old kid, so she was in no way ready to take on the responsibility of being a mother.

I'll also say that not knowing who my birth parents were most of my life really didn't bother me at all because I was adopted by wonderful people who gave me my start in life and who loved me and took great care of me in all the years that I was growing up so as far as I'm concerned, the parents who raised me are my parents. It was nice to learn who my birth parents were and connect with some people who knew them (and I've even connected with a half-sister that I never knew I had), but to be honest, my birth parents don't mean nearly as much to me as my real parents mean to me, and I'll never get to know them anyway as they're both deceased. When I did DNA testing a few years ago some of the relatives of my birth mother reached out to me, and I later found out who my birth father was and I reached out to my half-sister, and it took a while for her to accept me and my half-brother still hasn't accepted me, but after the initial excitement of connecting with relatives that I never knew that I had, it's all gone back to status quo and I hardly hear from any of them, and as with most of the people in my life, I have to make the effort to keep in touch with them. I met some of my mother's relatives once and I'm supposed to meet my half-sister this Fall, but I feel pretty certain that after that I'll probably never see them again.

jediwands

Indeed. Even when Ephram finds out in NYC, Ephram immediately senses Madison didn't think he was old enough/mature enough to handle it and that's why she didn't tell him from the start. That would be correct, Ephram. Not only does Ephram know this based on Madison keeping the news from him and only telling him because of randomly bumping into each other (fate) in NYC, but he naturally understands over the course of their relationship Madison never trusted him with anything. She didn't want him around the band, she didn't even want to be seen with him in public! She treated him like a child, which was why it was so gross that she slept with that child and even had unprotected/careless sex with this child.

So if Madison never trusted him with anything basic in the past, even simple things she should have... and she already knew she was pregnant and went to Andy, not Ephram, when she knew... how on earth are we to believe she ever would have trusted Ephram and valued his opinion on the matter had she gone to him in the first place? It simply wouldn't have happened. She never took him seriously or thought he was mature enough for anything. He would have been an outsider regardless. Nothing would have changed minus Ephram knowing but his thoughts and desires wouldn't have mattered to Madison. I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest otherwise.

Alexa

He wanted her to help him with his kid though, not with Juliard? And she didnt have to say yes. She could have easily said "you know what, i am not that comfortable with this yet." And ultimately, Ephram realized tat, and backed off. He told Amy it would be better for him to handle the stuff with his kid on his own. That wasnt becasue he didnt want Amy's involvement. It was because he could tell she wasn't that invested in this or excited to help.

Had Amy been super supportive, then my opinion would be different. I would be pissed at Ephram because she would have done everything expected of her. But i saw her trying to get the audtiion for him not to be nice, btu to distract him and get back to his old life.

Hell, she didnt even have to be happy with the situation, she just had to be honest about it, but that wasn't how she acted. At the start of the ep she was super supportive, all up until he wanted to visit his kid, then her entire demeanor changed.


But she WANTED to go to him? She was planning to. It was only after the threats (lets be real, thats how they came off) from Andy that she didnt. I think she was scared as heck to tell Ephram after that. Yes we saw multiple instances of Madison not thinking ephram was mature etc and i am sure she would have kept other things from him, or treated him poorly during hte pregnancy period, but I dont think she would have not told him if it werent for andy. It was clear when they saw each other again how badly she wanted to spill the news.

Of course not. I'm not saying a mother is bad for putting up a child for adoption. Thats her choice. Im also not saying that a kid who is adopted has it worse. Sometimes kids get lucky and have wonderful adoptive parents. But I know that a lot of children unfortuantely DO NOT get that and end up in foster homes or worse situations.

Im just sayin for ME i could never give a child up for adoption. Never. I just would absoltuely hate the idea of my child being out there.

My mom asked me once why i didnt donate eggs to make money and I was appalled like, whattttt. and have my kids out there? i think that is so weird. I view them as my children and wouldn't just be able to simply forget they exist.


Also I want to say I dont think that ephram was responsible enough to be a father, but he did have RIGHTS to be listed as the birth father. He did have the right to know his son existed so he could maybe someday, have a relationship with him. He did have the right to see the child, or know what was going on with him. Many people choose to do open adoptions, and he coul dhave chosen that. I find it really sick and disgusting that Madison and Andy both chose just not to tell him abou this kid. I really, really, am upset about this.

and if my parents did that to me, I would be so angry with them for a lot longer than 3 months.


So you never met them? That doesnt hurt you at all? To have never met them?

Why did you do a DNA test then if you didn't care to meet them?


I think that is great, and definitely how you should feel if your parents gave you up and didnt care to have a relatiosnhip with you. But agian, that is not ephram. This wasn't what he wanted. Maybe he wasn't mature enough to be a father but it was his right to make that choice for himself.

That's kind of sad, but honestly, understandable because you didnt grow up together. But thats kind of my point. Perhaps you would have had an amazing and genuine connection with them had they been in your life/had you known them. My sister is my best friend, and I cant imagine not knowing her.

I was not adopted but I do have a step father that I was much closer to than my real dad, so I do get it. Just because they are your birth parents doesn't mean that they are better equiped to raise you or that you wont love the people who did raise you, but my point is, that was your parents choice when they gave you up for adoption.

How would you feel if you learned your birth mother gave you up and your birth father didnt know about it and had wanted to raise you? I think that would be very heartbreaking.


Out of curiosity Jerry, did your birth parents give up the other children for adoption too? Or just you? Did you ever learn why? And when did your adoptive parents tell you you were adopted?

jediwands

I am not sure precisely what Ephram expected. Did he honestly expect Amy to help him completely get in touch with or find out information on a kid he had with an adult woman? It was very weird. She actually did help him in this way slightly too. Then when Ephram was talking about possibly going to see the kid she was like whoa, really? I don't think a lot of people on the board ever thought that was a good idea. Amy reacted like most of us were reacting.

That's the thing though... did Madison truly want to go to Ephram? If she did, why did she go to Andy first? She consulted with his "daddy" first. Why? She already knew she was pregnant. She knew it. She consulted with Andy for a reason. If she desperately wanted to go to Ephram she would have gone there immediately, without even blinking. She would have told him. She didn't. She went to his father first. That speaks volumes. Madison never listened to anything Andy had to say in the past. If she wanted to tell Ephram about the baby from the start she would have but something held her back. She would have gone there from the start and even after talking to Andy (because she obviously knew Ephram was too immature in her mind) she still would have gone to Ephram. Andy didn't hold a gun to her head. He highly suggested, he was an idiot, but again, for me it's all about patterns...

1. Madison never gave the audience any indication she thought of Ephram as anything more than a boy she was with and embarrassed to be with. She treated him like garbage, always aware of the fact that it was an illegal relationship in the eyes of the law and she viewed Ephram as immature... "sweetie" was such a condescending way she talked to him... it was not due to romantic love... she viewed him as a little boy.

2. Madison never listened to Andy either for anything else.


We saw way too much of this character so a full season tells me there was a distinct pattern of how Madison operated. There was zero evidence to suggest she actually really wanted to tell Ephram because Madison did what Madison wanted to do... always. She never would have gone to Andy first if she wanted to tell Ephram so badly, and it wasn't to confirm the pregnancy either even if it was confirmed since Andy was a doctor and that's what he does. However, she went to Andy because her first thought was never going to Ephram first. She hesitated. Like I said, even if she would have told him sooner there's no way his opinion would have largely mattered. Ephram, literally Ephram Brown, right in NYC pretty much backed this up based on how he perceived things. He felt helpless which is precisely what he felt like throughout their entire relationship. Patterns.

jediwands

I am sitting here thinking about how things would have happened had Madison gone to Ephram, not Andy and told him about the pregnancy. Or went to Ephram shortly after talking to Andy...

I cannot, for even a second, believe that they would have maturely had a conversation about it, Ephram's opinions would have mattered fully, and together, they would have had a plan on how to proceed. I just can't. It seems so insane to me. Not based on how we viewed Madison treated Ephram before this time. Now, all of a sudden, during the most stressful moment in probably both of their lives, suddenly they were going to come together and handle this? Something this big?

No way. It would have ended in yelling, screaming, you don't trust me, my opinions don't matter, you think I am just a boy (because you are), and it would have ended up a circus. I would bet money Madison would have left town (just like she did) and then informed Ephram she gave the baby up for adoption which, in my mind, was absolutely a selfless decision. The best decision she ever made.

When I even entertain the idea of them keeping the baby and having joint custody... how was that even going to go? Ephram, and his zero balance in the bank account, would have been able to even be seen in the eyes of the court as being able to receive joint custody? How would that have even been possible without dropping out of school or daddy paying for and supporting a baby he had with an adult woman he wasn't even with anymore? Not to mention, would Madison have been prosecuted for having sex and getting pregnant with a minor?

What a mess. A complete mess. One that honestly worked out for the best.

jediwands

jediwands

I have a question, guys…

Does anyone have major plans for the 4th?

Since it’s a holiday do you want to wait to resume on Sunday, July 10th, or should we stick with Sunday, July 3rd?

I’m open to either date.

everwoodfan52

I am going to the beach that weekend. Either date is ok...I'll just catch up if I have to.

jediwands

The weekend of the 10th?

What would be ideal for you?

July 3rd, July 10th, or even July 17th to start up again?

jediwands

I’m open to starting this Sunday or taking a couple more weeks off too.

Totally up to everyone else!

Jerry D

I'd suggest the weekend of the 10th.

jediwands

I like that idea as well!

Right now we are considered a holiday weekend (even if many Americans don't feel like celebrating ) and then we start fresh after the 4th is over.

everwoodfan52

I hate to keep doing this, but this is what happens when you have a child and grandchild living in another country...you go there or they come here or you will never see each other!
So...Nadine and family are coming to the US for a visit July 12 until Aug. 5. 5 weeks. I have told Michelle that I don't want to halt the rewatch again for this...I will catch up when I can! So...I am leaving it up to everyone to decide. Thanks for understanding!