joske

Almost every other shipper group took what they got as it came,...

Talking about P/Jers'reaction during S5 of which you were as big a part as any other P/Jer, but guess since you got "We won, yeah" everything is well...


it was the fact that some DJers assumed for so many years that they were getting their payoff that when it didnt come they cried foul as if they were promised the ending, noody promised anyone anything...

What about the

- You are going who I want
- Love ends and begins again
- we get the happy ending
- more than anything I want us to be together
- I've never loved anyone the way I love you
- you are my past, present and future
...and numerous others. We were promised either some realistic resolution or another fair chance for D/J at romance. Instead tptb had to twist themselves in finding the most contrived reasons for something we all know had to happen. In the end D/Jers got nothing from this show in the last 4 years except Coda and half an episode in the S6 premiere and the knowledge that 90% of the finale was written with a poor D/J ending.

Also

- P was shown and praised as the one who never looks back
- P in 519 said he never wanted to be involved again with someone who has a soulmate


As to P/J where did I say that P/J wasn't to happen? (If the show was doomed to last longer each fan knew there would be a P/J chapter)Where did I say that we wanted 6 seasons of D/J? I only said that good writers would resolve D/J and based on S1 and 2 which - may I remind you- is just as much DC history as S3 and 4 there was another chapter to write. Good writers wouldn't have neglected it or try to write it off. Now it came off as something they were afraid of going into because they lacked the talent to write it in connection with the show's history. Finding the most contrived situations to not have to write a chapter comes off as not WANTING to write it. As I said on the D/J thread everything in the show post S2 was forced to go away from what was expected and in the long run it became ridiculous and a slap in the face of millions of fans. There were lots of ways to write D/J post S2 without them being romantic; there were lots of ways to have them slowly getting back together in S6, even after the blow up in the premiere.

It's the lack of an authority in the writers'room who knew where to go with the story even if DC was not prolongued, that allowed writers to show their bias. Basically it comes down to one thing: the writers didn't know where to go with D/J given the history of S1 and 2. They were aware of their contrived ways to sell the P/J story but once they had built up a new fanbase (And destroyed the P/AN) they had to cater to them for as long as possible. Everything this show was once about was destroyed for the P/J storyline with the only hope that this fangroup would be big enough to keep ratings to a minimal. That's why they kept P/J as long in S4 and it showed their poverty in creative ideas because they didn't have any ideas beyond P/J. Once they gave up P/J, watching the battlefield they had left became very clear, it was dead. Nothing to continue that had been built up before, because there was nothing, they had neglected it to push their one story through. They always went for the instant story, never thought long run and to cover up their poor creativity they became sarcastic, made the characters into caricatures, recycled practically everything of before and the ratings dropped and dropped.

I am sure that even if they had resolved D/J or P/J completely there would always be enough viewers to tolerate the storylines to keep the show in the air and by not resolving them they made themselves more morons, but they were incapable of writing anything good.

I am not condemning the writers completely but I am condemning the persons who had control over the storylines all these years, the lack of a guidance long term.

Kevin should have known better and had them finish the crap they had made of his brainchild. If he were smart he would have seen how the new set of responsible ones for the show had been mocking him and his story for years. If ever he will watch S3-6 maybe he will be aware of the violation and realize what a stupid move he made to come back into something he must not have recognized anymore. What a few bucks can do to your pride.

Apparently S3 and on tried to cater to a completely different base than S1 and 2 (In part). That's why there will always be 2 DC's whether you like it or not; the breaking point after S2 was too obvious. And it gives satisfaction that millions of fans admired S1 and 2 and that DC for the majority of fans (Not the internet fans which IMO gave tptb the wrong indications) will always be remembered for those 2 seasons and for the depiction of an unique friendship that was D/J's. Post S2 the ratings were never as high except for 601/2 which was due to D/J as other premieres never gave those figures, not 401 and certainly not 501. Stubbornly despite those exceptional ratings comparable to the S1 ones, it was decided after 601/2 to go back to the non storylines. This tells me a lot about what happened behind the scenes and about writers'pride.

Jerry, amen. Like you I could relate and smile when I watched S1 and the majority of S2 for the recognizable stories, for the discussions D and J had and for the P/An story. I enjoyed the equal screentime to all characters, I enjoyed buildup and the character driven stories, I laughed at how D was able to scare Joey, I enjoyed the craftsmanship that went into storylines, I enjoyed watching D who selflessly helped J go through the hardships in an adult way, leaving the last decision to her like in The Beauty Contest or in Perfect Wedding. Like Jen said in the finale he was patiently waiting for the love to come like when he knew he couldn't force things after J broke up with him and waited till J kissed him in PW. Everyday I work with teenagers and so many situations were recognizable: the parental issues (Though luckily not as bad as in DC), the first loves, the growing up, the mistakes. Unfortunately it was all left behind once Kevin left and the depth on this show was lost forever in exchange of shallow hookups and plot driven instant stories where history was used when it fit the writers to be neglected the next episode when they wanted the audience to have amnesia. Like you said "Wasted potential".

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited joske ]

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited joske ]

julialex

I totally can't blame the writers for poking fun at us fans. We were hilarious!

It's still funny to read posts like Joske's. There are so many presumptions in your point of view, Jan:

One, that DC was ever realistic.I guess so, if you think J. Crew ads set to pop music reflect the reality of teenage life. Anyone whose father taught them how to kiss by using a giant doll's head, please raise your hand.

Two, that it was ever well written. A fresh faced cast, good production values and a beachtown setting disguised the fact that the dialogue and situations were always overwrought and terminally silly on this show.

Three, that the show was ever about anything other than couples. It was all the girly excitement over the first season finale kiss that put this show on the map. Nothing else. Teenage girl flavor of the month shipping. When you watch the show now, without the cultural timeliness, it already seems dated, silly and not even close to believable.

I think these writers did try to please the fans. I also think they pretty much failed. The show became a laughingstock, NOT as Joske suggests, because there wasn't enough "courage" in telling the DJ story, but because the writers appeared to be writing from poolside Beverly HIlls and didn't seem to have any touch whatsoever with the real life world of real life young people.

DC was a casualty of shipping. I think a lot of shows learned from it. Romance is a great dramatic ingredient but when you base a show on romance (like DC did, BECAUSE of the DJ story that put it on the map) you never get anything but soap opera.

Right now, I'm enjoying observing the Angel fandom as that show gets put to a very premature end, and I'm noticing again what a self destructive element shipping is to fans. Angel is a show entirely NOT about ships, and a show entirely WELL written. The writers do seem to understand they don't need to cater to shippers, and hopefully will make a finale that doesn't do that. However, nothing stops the shippers from tormenting themselves. B/A shippers,who anyone can see are doomed to have their grandiose dreams come crashing down, are building themselves up with the same kind of certainty that Joske did prior to DC's finale. And whenever a hint emerges that they will not be given the total satisfaction they have convinced themselves they deserve, what is the first thing they do? Blast the writers, curse the writers, make boycott plans for anything the writers do in the future. [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] It's so familiar to me.

DC writers were handed a show without a premise. It was based on a central character that was uninteresting, played by an actor who was unlikable, half of a ship that had no chemistry. The show had been built on this crumbly foundation, and the fans who had accumulated around it were looking for stories about kisses and sex. I think the writers probably felt as unsatisfied as some of us fans did, but they were workers in a factory that produced commercial poll driven "art". I don't see how you can blame them without blaming the audience - that constantly begged and threatened - as well.

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited julialex ]

COOLCAT200

That's your opinion but I respectfully Disagree Completely as far as that goes.

joske

It's so familiar to see your James hating shining through your so called objectified resume of DC and you still can't hide your disappointment about the FACT that lots of people enjoyed DC the early seasons (Even James, WOW), a LOT more than S3-6. Call it nostalgia, call it the recognizable situations, but obviously millions were captivated by S1 and parts of S2. And no, shows don't need to be realistic, if I want to see realism I go out on the streets.

You misinterpreted my post as I was telling that if the writers had the talent to write beyond couples (D/J and P/J) and show us the hard times of growing up rather than recycling all the things they did at 15/16, it could have been/remain an interesting show. There were chances of bringing in new characters who could stay on the show (Like Jack and Andie) for longer than a year to broaden the basis of storylines. As for tptb listening to fans, they only ever listened to one fangroup, which made their aims quite clear. No D/Jer wanted the crap that was S5. The D/J fangroup asked rightfully for resolving D/J: that they were fine with friendship or if not for a rightful chance at romance and neither happened because it is obvious that resolving D/J was something that wasn't allowed. As I said a good show would even if D/J were resolved, find enough interesting elements for their fans to keep watching.

I only watched a part of a Smallville episode last year and last night I watched another part. I don't know which season or I don't know much about the characters/storylines but it seems they stole from DC a lot: Chloe (?) is like Jen and Clark says exactly what D said: If I know anything it's that we are meant to be...while Lana is scared though she loves the guy as much, it will destroy their friendship if it doesn't end well. Seems on a lot of other shows (Heard that Everwood is copying too) the DC story is replayed. Probably the ones in charge felt there is still place for a story like DC only they take care they don't mess it up like what happened on DC. They know how to cherish a good story but to be honest I don't know anything about the future stories.

Lor-baby

Yeah i completely desagree too Juliex.And totally see your point Joske and i agree..the story has been rewritten and not evolved after seson2..and then there were so many DJmoments in which it really seemed that they would've got the happy emding and then nothing..i mean they could've also made their romance finish in season two but withouth making them saying what they said next.

Jerry D

I completely disagree that Dawson was an unlikable character, or that James was an unlikable actor, and I definitely disagree that Dawson and Joey or James and Katie had no chemistry, but to each his or her own. Granted, I think that James’ disdain for the show and the stories shown through in his performances in the later seasons, but in the early seasons, I thought he did a great job playing Dawson. I think it’s sometimes difficult to view the early episodes of the show after knowing what comes later, but I think that James and Katie had plenty of chemistry in Seasons One and Two, and that James put a lot into playing Dawson in those early seasons, and I, for one could really identify with a lot of the things he did, especially in the way he went overboard to impress the object of his infatuation.

Granted, Dawson’s Creek was never realistic, but there was something idyllic about the setting for Season One that I found to be very sweet, and I loved the show back then not just because of Dawson and Joey, but because of the way that all of the characters interacted, especially Dawson and Pacey. I even enjoyed Pacey and Joey’s banter back then, because although they verbally sparred a lot, you could tell that deep down, they had an affection for one another that manifested itself in different ways in that season, and so I disagree that Dawson’s Creek was always only about the couples.

All that innocence and sweetness was lost in the later seasons, and it even started to get lost towards the end of Season Two, and Dawson’s Creek turned into a show devoted to the many loves of Joey Potter, and it simply wasn’t the same show. Oh well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

julialex

Joske, you seem to have forgotton the reams of DJ scenarios you promised your fellow DJ fans over the years. As the show was winding down, over on the infamous Spoiler board DC thread, day after day you would log on to script out long detailed scenarios that would "obviously" "clearly" "definitely" take place.

Such as:

1. An hour devoted solely to Dawson and Joey, since PJ fans had gotten one.
2. An incredible DJ consummation in Dawson's boyhood bed (this bed thing was a key point to you), followed by a ritual bed burning.
3. Various Pacey Dawson scenarios where Pacey apologized for ever tampering with the sacred soulmate bond.
Etc...

I've noticed you never address these past dreams of yours. Maybe you are now embarassed by them. But seriously, did these scenarios appeal to you because they were dramatically intelligible or courageous or, god help us - recognizable???? You may not recognize this Joske, because you are a grown man and not a teenage girl, but you are a SHIPPER. The things you wanted out of DC all revolved around getting your shipper dreams fulfilled. Like just about all of us. There's no shame in it. You don't have to hide behind silly pronouncements about Season One trying to elevate it to something other than what it was: a commercial product with a charismatic cast designed to build up teen interest in a new TV network.

You're a disappointed shipper. I've noticed on other threads you take pleasure in thinking that the writers who didn't satisfy you may not be getting work. It seems so crazy to feel such vengeance over a show like this.

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited julialex ]

wbviewer

DC was a teen soap, it was a serialized drama of teen trials and tribulations. The DJ romance or any other romance do not make it a soap opera.

You mentioned Angel, which I think has suffered greatly due to the lack of romantic storyline in recent months, particularily since the chance of Buffy doing some kind of guest appearance was knixed . The demographic they are trying to reach likes quirky writing, interesting characters and storylines but always with some romantic potential or sexual tension. It doesn't always have to be the main storyline, but it needs to be there and it needs to involve 2 main characters that the audience is heavily invested in.

That's where DC created a problem. Instead of giving stories that illustrated the intense relationship Joey had with both Pacey and Dawson they had to demonize or completely ignore one for the other. I still think there was great potential for a continuing story that involved all 3. When those 3 had other relationships it would have gone a long way to have them interact together. With almost every character any romatic relationship outside the group was so isolated from the other characters that you just didn't care and you knew it was just a matter of time before they would be gone, so why invest in the character or relationship?

julialex

DC was a teen soap but not a soap opera? I guess I'm not getting the distinction.

This shipper topic always seems to upset people. The thing is I LOVE romantic stories. Love them. They are my favorite kind of story. And when I get one I like, I want to see as much of it as I can - basically, in tv terms, that is what shipping is.

But that doesn't blind me to the gigantic problem that fan shipping poses for writers. Going on and on in depth with one romance, kind of mirroring a long term romance that one might have in real life, does not seem to me to present a writer with much opportunity. They need to keep conjuring up dramatic situations, not endless variations on one theme that will keep shippers squeeing. Time and again when I read what shippers are looking for in a story, I am struck almost dumb by the banality of what they want to see.

I agree that Angel suffered some from lack of romance. But I have to say I think it benefited MORE. They have had wonderfully creative stories this year, and no shipper wars have been started, no fans clawing each others eyes out over rival fantasies. Great writing. A show I'm never embarassed to recommend to friends, or to watch with company.

Joske mentioned Smallville and Everwood, two examples of shows aimed at teens that are NOT shipper based. Smallville has a shipper theme running through it, but it's kept very subdued, and always secondary to the comic book action nature of the plot. Everwood, unlike DC, actually DOES have recognizable situations of teens and families, hasn't latched on to any squeeable ships and is therefore free to let romances bloom,develop and die as the story dictates. It is also free to let its main characters look foolish and face realistic consequences, never having hobbled any of them with the heroic mantle that the Golden God, Dawson Leery, was so short sightedly saddled with.

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited julialex ]

behrlover18

I think that the writers were just doing what they were suppose to. I mean sure in the back of their minds i dont think they were intentionally dragging particular couples, like dawson and joey fans along. i mean we cant honestly put all the blame on them. If i was the writer of the show, i would at least do what i think its best for the show, i mean i may have imput of how the fans react.

I just think that is what the writers were doing, they were trying to benefits both major fanbases, when in their cases they could not, that is why we have to see the " stringing along couples" in most of the episodes, because i do believe that is how they wanted it get the show as successful, i mean it sucked that they had to do that. but we as fans cannot control what the writers do and dont do. i mean they do their jobs and go home.

Sugz

But PJers never expected Pacey and Joey to reunite in season 5 joske, all we wanted was some acknowledgement that they ever dated which was NEVER a problem with DJ. We werent upset because Joey and PAcey didnt get back together, sure it wouldve been cool, but we never expected it, all we wanted was some acknowledgement, and in season 6 when we got a reunion, as well as the finale,it was a pleasant shock.


Those arent promises from the writers to you that Dawson and Joey would get another chance! Those were teenage proclamations that Dawson and Joey never failed to spew whenever they were actually on good terms and almost always contradicted in later episodes. ALL of the couples got this. Joey told Pacey her future lied with him and that in 10 years he would know her best, Pacey told Joey he planned to be wherever she was, did PJers take that as a signed and sealed promise that Pacey and Joey would end up together? Hardly.

And then what do you make of things like "I dont want to know you anymore" and "Maybe we're just two old friends making a huge mistake", Joey said those things too didnt she? Yet you didnt put much stock into those now did you? You cant pick and choose what you want to believe and then cry foul when the writers dont come through for you on the things you liked, the harsh reality is it wasnt just Dawson and Joey who got those silly sayings about the future, many couples on the show did, it seems it was only some Dawson and Joey fans who actually staked so much on them and adopted them as a guarantee. Thats nobodys fault but your own.

hshapir2

I think it is made way too much out you're a huge part of my past, present, and future. Why does that have to do with romance? She didn't even say he was her future. She didn't even want to go with him. This is the same girl who two years earlier had no problem telling Pacey she was in love with him and ran off with him for three summers with no suitcase and her sister's B and B needed help. Pacey also said he would be there for Dawson always after Mitch died. Joey even said Pacey and Dawson would always be a part of each other whether they hang out or not. Like Sugz, I don't think just because someone says something, it is going to happen. That is just what couples say when they are together. In our case, it just ended up being true. That is usually not the case. Joey did get the happy ending. She was happy with Pacey and Dawson was happy with his career. I don't understand how people take everyone says word for word.

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited hshapir2 ]

wbviewer

In a earlier post you seemed to say that DC didn't become a soap until they focused solely on the romance storyline I was just pointing out that romantic storylines don't make it a soap although they are generally a large part of the storylines

Don't you only get a shipping problem if there is some kind of triangle? A romantic storyline between 2 people is great, but in almost every case a 3rd person is introduced which creates division in the fans because some people will like one pair and some people will like the other.

I agree completely. That's why I loved the triangle. I don't want to be tortured in real life with confused feelings and angst, but I love my TV characters to be that way!

Re:Angel
I agree the show is quite good and funny to boot. I'm not as into the show as I was into DC but I think you underestimate the shipping regarding the whole Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle. There is an article in TV Guide this week specifically about that subject and how the triangle will be resolved in the finale. Joss Whedon quote, "Definitely, the question of Angel versus Spike looms large in Buffy's mind and in the minds of the fans, but I'm not saying whether or not I have decided to answer it."
If that's not fanning the flames of shipping fandom, I don't know what would. The writers, producers, advertisers know that once you have a quality show with a decent fan base there is nothing like a triangle to keep the embers burning. People want "their" couple to "win". And will generally watch to the bitter end

I think Everwood is a top-notch drama and I think Berlanti was an asset at DC that was not utilized well. Everwood always has interesting storylines for all the characters, although I think this season they have isolated some of the storylines too much from the other storylines.

julialex

I don't know if you need a triangle in order for shippers to start stomping their feet and making demands. Just a run on will-they-won't-they like Luke and Lorelei seems to do the job pretty well also.

I agree that there's a shipper war subtext to the Angel fandom and I've read all the stupid quotes about the supposed triangle there. But it seems different to me, because I've never seen a triangle that only had two sides to it. Buffy isn't on the show, hasn't been part of the stories. So it seems the stories have a freedom to be fresh and original. Yes the B/A shippers are still shadow boxing with their invisible foes, but if anything they're only proving how nonsensical shipping becomes when carried to its limit. They have a GREAT show to watch and all they can see is the ending they won't be able to have.

Jerry D

I love a good romance too, and I absolutely adored the romantic undercurrent that Dawson and Joey’s friendship had in Season One, and I also loved Pacey and Andie’s romance in Season Two, and I loved seeing Pacey and Joey rekindle their romance in Season Six. I also loved seeing Dawson and Jen as a romantic couple in Seasons One and Five. But can anyone honestly say they enjoyed the other romances on the show, like Pacey and Karen, or Pacey and Audrey, or Joey and Eddie, or Jen and Charlie, or Joey and Charlie, or Dawson and Natasha? All of those so-called “romances” were about as exciting as watching paint dry, and they bored me to tears, and that’s what I call lazy writing. I would have much preferred seeing stories that had more depth to them, and would have allowed us to know the characters that we cared about better, rather than seeing those characters in pointless romances that wasted our time and insulted our intelligence. That’s what I meant when I said that this show devoted way too much time to romantic entanglements.