Sugz

Many people feel that they deliberately toyed with or mocked certain fanbases at certain times. Others feel they were just doing their job and trying to give the majority of the fans what they wanted, not always succeeding. Still others feel that the only way Dawsons Creek couldve ever lived up to its potential was if the original season 1 and 2 writers wouldve stayed on for all 6 seasons.

What is your impression of the writers in hindsight?


Personally I dont think they're as evil as they're made out to be. I do believe that as a whole, along with the network, they looked at Dawson's Creek a a job and a business and their main objective was to get people to watch, which meant stringing along the two largest fan bases that developed to the very end.

Individually, I think that there were writers over the years who had differing ideas which gave us the mish mosh we got mid series. I think that it was clear in the beginning of season 5 that the new showrunner Tom Kapinos was not interested in pleasing or stringing along all fans but was intent on bringing back Dawson and Joey as a romance. It seems to be that other writers as well as the network were not in agreement with him and season 5 was a bit of a war, which is why there were stops in production as well as a choppy Dawson and Joey story that never reall ymaed any progress. It seems the more business-smart route of keeping as many fans watching as possible won out over Toms vision, which I think was smart because alienating a large fanbase that you fed and created the entire season prior is just not smart Tom.

I also think that by the end of the series more and more of the writers seemed to tire of the "couple" stuff and let off a little steam mocking certain couple and fanbases as evidenced by Gina Fattore in Castaways indirectly ranting through Joey about "Boy calculus" and the Pacey vs Dawson wars . Kevin Williamson also got his shots in at the DJ romance that never worked by mocking it in a fake dream sequence finale wedding.

I also think that its a cop out to blame the post season 1 and 2 writers for what you didnt like in later seasons. After all, it was Kevin who broke up Dawson and Joey twice in season 2 and I think its obvious that even if the season 1 and 2 writers wouldve stayed Dawsn and Joey were going to be stepped away from in season 3 and a Joey and Pacey pairing was planned by Kevin even in the beginning of the series.

All in all, I cant blame the writers for what they did. I think it wouldve been better if they couldve all sat down and decided on a direction for each season and been in agreement with it, which it seems they werent, but given the fact that there were so many writers with so many different ideas I think that the majority of the seasons of DC were pretty much on target aside from a slip up here and there. I dont think they were out to intentionally hurt any one fanbase because the fact is, they hurt all fanbases along the way and in the end, someone was bound to be unhappy and that wasnt the writers fault , that was the fault of the fans who divided themselves.

I think when it came down to the finale they just wanted to do something that gave the biggest story on DC (whether you liked it or not), the D/J/P triangle, a resolution that left everyone happy. Which I believe it did, all 3 characters were happy in the end, DJers got the untouchable bond, Pjers go the romance. And I think that was nice on the part of the writers who couldve been a lot worse to either or all die hard shippers that they took so much pleasure in mocking, which I cant blame them fofr either, die hard shippers like us are so mock-able [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

COOLCAT200

You made some good points but it's also not right to tease the D/J fans like they did with the ''They are finally gonna get there shot but ohhhhh nooooo lets not let happen but let's make it look like its gonna happen and get there fans hopes up''. After 602 I fully felt toyed with and when you love a couple as much as I love D/J it's just sad when I would get my hopes up and then boom. When I read the spoilers about the fight in 601/02 I really thought it was some kind of sick joke. Surly you can understand that.

Sugz

Oh completely. Just like it was mean to toy with Joey and Pacey fans and ignore the fact that they had a relationship for a year. Just like it was mean that they put them back together in season 6 to break them up again because Joey "didnt feel it". Just like it was mean to Dawson and Jen fans to put them back together and then say Dawson was stillin love with Joey all along. Point is, everyone got toyed with, everyone had things happen that they didnt like, not just Dawson and Joey fans. The writers werent just out to screw Dawson and Joey fans, they were out to switch it up as often as possible to keep as many people watching, its what all dramatic writers an dproducers must do, I dont see how any one fanbase can take it personally.

Lor-baby

I agree Sugz the writers have been mean with a lot of fans not just with PJers or DJers..but i still think that season1 and2 were really unique and much more better than all the other.I mean yes it was Kevin who made Dawson and Joey breaking up twice in season two and i don't know if he was planning a P/Jthing but he was able to give realism and magic to the show together and even coherence..something that i personally think the show left after season2.I actully find good just the last5 episodes of season3,liked almost all season4 but seasn5 and6 were surreal.I mean Joey left by Pacey cried for two episodes and then was again so madly deeply in love with Dawson that she didn't even care that Pacey slept with Audrey...then she told Dawson she knew he was her past,present and future,that she loved him and didn't want to run away anymore(Swan Song).In season6 she had her first time with Dawson,the day after she was all happy and excited then the Natasha thing(it wasn't really a typical Dawson thing that..i'm sure it was a PJer writer who decide that),then she met Eddie and boom..she was in love with him..then he left and boom..in love with Pacey..then Eddie returned and..boom in love with him again and she didn't feel anything for Pacey anymore.What i mean is that we have had a lot of contraddictions during all the seasons.And it's not true that Dawson and Joey after season two didn't feel anything romantic anymore cos all season5 made it very clear..the problem is that when we had PJer writers Joey seemed in love with Pacey,when we had DJer writers she seemed in love with Dawson..it was quite a sort of war that created a lot of contraddictions and made the finale almost without sense.I guess that Kevin would've made a better jog.Maybe he would've let Dawson and Joey just friends or maybe not..but i'm sure that everything would've been much more realistic.

newmom5497

THanks for all of the insight Sugz.

My personal opinion is, when you have a tv series you have to "mix it up" or its just not going to stay interesting. As much as I am a D/J fan, I LOVED the whole "triangle" storyline and really enjoyed the Pacey-Joey romance. I don't think it would have stayed interesting if Dawson and Joey stayed together for the entire 6 years...BORING. I think the actors felt the same way..I remember Katie saying that on a TRL interview...that it would be boring if Dawson and Joey stayed together.

The only time I think the writers were at fault, and I don't even know if this is 100% true(Sugz, maybe you know the true story)...but I remember an interview with one of the cast members(James, I think) discussing Season 3...and I think he said that the new writers that were hired for the beginning of Season 3 didnt even like the show. So of course the writing is going to be radically different from the previous 2 seasons(and it showed). I believe those particular writers were fired by mid-Season 3...and thankfully the remainder of that Season was wonderful.

But beyond that, I would have to say that the writers/producers mostly did what they thought was best for the show. I'm sure that most of them wanted it to be successful, and I also would think that fan-input did have some influence as to storylines. BUt I don't think the writers/producers "toyed" with particular fan-bases just to tick them off. That just isnt smart business-practice.

I think my only "beef" with any particular writing choice was the finale. I honestly think that they should have spent more time writing it and it could have been better if the writing was more thought-out. I think even Kevin Williamson admits to that in the commentary.

Sugz

I think you can deduce for yourself whether that is true or not. I mean really, saying that the writers who were hired in season 3 didnt even like the show? Thats a bit excessive isnt it? Keep in mind those same writers, stayed on for 2 and 3 more seasons after season 3, so not liking the show is ridiculous. I think what they wanted to do was switch it up a little to keep it from getting stale and another season of "Dawson and Joey will they won they" romance was not what the show needed, Im confident that even if Kevin had stayed on he wouldve stepped away from Dawson and Joey as well, its just the sensical thing to do.

I think it's fine if you prefer seasons 1 and 2, just like I preferred seasons 3 and 4, but to think that the writers somehow sabotaged a certain couple or fanbase on purpose through 4 seasons is a bit out there. I dont think there were "PJ writers" and "DJ writers" . Gina Fattore co-wrote Coda and wrote Castaways, you cant get any more opposite than those two episodes. The writers have to go with the arc, they can add a twist in their own writing, sure, but each writer doesnt decide whats going to happen, that decision beongs to the show runner so the idea that there were separate PJ and Dj writers isnt true. However, I do think its common knowledge though that as the series got further in most writers preferred writing for Pacey and Joey, and ahts their personal perogative, but it doesnt mean they individually get to decide what happens.

joske

stupin never had a vision and let his writers fool him. Also the first writers of S3 were fired but the new set was as bad.

Even if D/J broke up twice in S2 there were lots of possibilities for the next seasons to write them, but as I said D/J and P/A were kevin's foster children and the new set of writers never went back to them unless to write them in a bad daylight. And the writers preferring to write for P/J is because it's shallow and they were incapable (or forbidden) to write deep convos because that was the hallmark of the S1 and 2 writers.

Oh and do you really believe there was no anti Dawson bias over the seasons? You must still believe in santa if you accept that. I have never seen a show that destroyed its main/title character as much as on DC.

The raw truth about DC is that the ones in charge lacked the writing talents to write beyond couples and never had a person in charge with enough autority to tell his writers where to go with the characters DESPITE fans'reactions and a right person in the right place would have made other aspects of the show interesting enough to keep viewers watching...and would have had the characters grow up rather than being 16 when they were supposed to be 25, a right man in the right place would have known D/J were unresolved and the longer they waited the more difficult it would be, a right man in the right place wouldn't need to force characters doing un-characteristic things to sell his newest plan; a right man in the right place would have more creativity than 1 story for 4 years, a right man in the right place wouldn't depend his next story on fans'input and finally a right man in the right place would consider history rather than rewrite it.

One of the raw truths on this show is that the new set of writers CREATED their foster child P/J(Why do you think it lasted that long compared to other couples?) and forced the center of the show onto them. Call it writers'pride or whatever but they couldn't gain applause over a good D/J story or P/An because those were kevin's inventions. It had been obvious that the ones in charge of S1 and 2 loved ALL their creations (A lot of creative work was put into their stories, flaws and good things alike) which can't be said about the writers( producers) of the last 4 seasons.

[ 03-24-2004: Message edited joske ]

Sugz

Since when was everything past season 3 up to Stupin? He wasnt showrunning, hell his job in later seasons boiled down to choosing the music. You put too much emphasis on one person when it really as a whole group of people and a network who decided what was going to go down. It's your conpiracy theories of "foolery" that really boggle my mind.

You dont agree that after 2 seasons of on and off Dawson and Joey that the writers had to step away from them romantically joske? I think that was pretty much a given. Anyone couldve come to write season 3 and wouldve deduced that. If you really think they couldve gone straight back to a DJ romance after seasons 1 and 2 then you're really seeing through daisy tinted glasses. I think of all the thing they got wrong in season3, Dawson and Joey was what they got right, they gave them their angsty couple of episode and they landed them on friendship. Just because you as a DJ fan wanted more doesnt make it wrong.

And lastly, how in the world can you say they never wrote DJ or P/Andie in a good light again? Did you miss the amazing friendship Pacey and Andie grew into in season 4? Or the friendship DJ had in season 4, and the sparks of romance past that? I dont know what show you're watching sometimes joske.

Wow well they must have been a talented bunch to create a one year relationship for such a "shallow" couple yet a couple as "deep" as Dawson and Joey could do nothing BUT talk, no action.

Wasnt it you yourself who said that the writers never let Dawson and Joey have the deep talks you wanted them to have? So Joey and Pacey didnt talk deep because theyre shallow but Dawson and Joey didnt talk deep because the writers were forbidden to write them that way? Way to epitomize contradiction.

I never said that. Where'd I say that? I said that I dont believe there was some huge conspiracy among the writers to tear DJ down. And the only time they wrote Dawson assy was the end of season 3, then they turned him into the golden boy of seasons 4-6 so no, I dont think they were anti Dawson, I think maybe they just preferred other characters. You know joske, just because the writers didnt do exactly what you wanted them to do with your favorite caracters doesnt mean they were bias. You take these small things, like the way Dawson was written in season 3 and make them into these huge conspiracies whenin reality, Dawson was written badly (but arguably, in character) for a quarter of ONE season. And written as a "golden god" thereafter. WHy warp things?

The only thing I actually agree with you with is that they couldve focused on more than couples in later seasons. But couples is what most people watched for so they went with it.

Joske, talent doesnt equal "what joske wanted to see onscreen", you cant say that just because they didnt write what you think they shouldve written that they were all underqualified.

And since you love Kevins season 1 and 2 writing so much, we know that it was Kevins brainchild to put PJ together, he said that he had the idea from season 1 even, so how was it the new writers baby? Putting Joey and Pacey together was a no brainer. So how would master Williamson have done it that wouldve been to your liking joske?

[ 03-24-2004: Message edited Sugz ]

notsomuch

You say this, but your biggest complaint about this show is that they didn't focus on the same story all 6 years.

Brighter Than Sunshine

I agree coolcat, and i felt the same way, I hate how writers start doing somthing and never finish it, it's just so irritating. But their are some things the writers did right, along with things that they did wrong. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

wbviewer

The writing was definitely uneven over the series. I personally found seasons 3 and 4 to be the best. I think their big mistake was not focusing on the couples and the main characters. That is why people watch soap opera type shows, for the connection to the main characters.

I think completely ignoring Pacey and Joey's relationship for season 5 and 6 was also a big mistake. It was unrealistic and I honestly think the triangle was their best storyline. There were numerous ways to continue that storyline in an interesting fashion. They just chose to drop it completely. After focusing on it for 1 and a half seasons it made the following seasons seem disconnected to the 1st 4 seasons, which in some way or another focused on Dawson, Pacey and Joey

Jerry D

Great topic Kim. In hindsight, I feel that the writers did a pretty awful job in the later seasons. Guest characters were brought in that added little to the show beyond eye candy, and meaningful storylines that could have added depth to the main characters were pushed aside for “fluff” stories that were sometimes dropped when the latest Internet poll told The Powers That Be that they weren’t working.

I also think that too many stories that could have allowed us to “know” these characters better were neglected to show us the characters’ insipid love lives, especially Joey’s love life, and I think the writers squandered the potential that this show had in its first season.

Dawson’s Creek was never a great drama, but in the hands of these mediocre writers, it became a very mediocre show. I think that these writers devoted way too much time to the romantic entanglements on the show, and they completely ruined what I had once loved about the show, which were the friendships. To be sure, romances are important when you’re a teenager and in your early twenties, but in my experience, friendships are just as important, but you’d never know it by watching Dawson’s Creek. Eventually, almost everyone in that incestuous group of friends ended hooking up with everyone else, and every single character was ruined in one way or another by the writers, to varying degrees.

In Season One, the writers told us stories that we could all relate to: the exhilaration and agony of being infatuated with someone, the pain of unrequited love, the importance of friendship, the desire to fit in when you’ve moved to someplace new, and the pain of being rejected by your family. I could really relate to the characters in Season One, even though I’m considerably past my teenage years, but from Season Two on, the show veered farther and farther away from any remote resemblance to reality, and it became a caricature of itself. To be sure, there was always a fantasy element to Dawson’s Creek, but some of the stories that we were “treated” to in the later seasons were so outlandish that I’d just shake my head when I’d watch them.

I also think that the Dawson and Joey fans were cynically strung along by the writers, who threw in a few scenes here and there in every season following Season Two to give the D/Jers hope, but bit by bit, the cynical hacks in charge of the show destroyed everything that Dawson and Joey fans like me had loved about them, and one of the sweetest friendships and potential romances that I had ever seen on the television screen was not only destroyed, but openly mocked by these “writers.”

Overall, I’ll always sum up Dawson’s Creek in two words: Wasted Potential.

Brighter Than Sunshine

I agree with you here, and i love the words you used to sum it up, Wasted Potential, sums it up perfecly. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-24-2004: Message edited Britney Van Der Beek ]

COOLCAT200

When I posted I was talking about D/J. I know the writers have toyed with all the fans in 1 way or another of all couples but all I was saying was the D/J thing was not just a 1 time thing it was something that was repeated over and over and over. I mean I don't think it's right they just completely ignored P/J in season 5 it was kind of weird seeing Joey so ok with the P/A thing. Also Jerry I completely agree wasted potential is right.

[ 03-24-2004: Message edited COOLCAT200 ]

Sugz

Well personally I think that 99 percent of the let down of DJ not ending up together certain fans brought up on themselves. There was no guarantee that after season 2 Dawson and Joey would get back together, it was just assumed and in time adopted as something that DJers "deserved", but says who? Almost every other shipper group took what they got as it came, they never expected anything but it was the fact that some DJers assumed for so many years that they were getting their payoff that when it didnt come they cried foul as if they were promised the ending, noody promised anyone anything.