[ROCKSTAR]

Ok, let's see how this thread goes.

There are certain topics mainstream movies don't dare touch, hell, denial is the name of the game when it comes to incest, (still to a certain degree) gay couples and to be real, interracial couples.

Now, there's nothing unusual about an interracial couple, but movies shy away from the propect. Sadly because there's a certain kind of tediousness of having mostly white couples being portrayed as ideal, beautiful, ever lasting, I'll die for you, kind of epic romance. In the director/producer commentary for The Day after Tomorrow, they discussed how people from the studio tried to keep the interracial couple (black man/white woman) from kissing on screen.

But, in real life, having a Japanese man and a Mexican woman getting married should not cause a stir. But incest does cause a stir, and probably, it should.

Tonight I watched "The Ballad of Jack & Rose" and I saw it as an amazing picture of an alternative lifestyle. I was truly taken in by the scenery, the music, the feel of what I imagined the characters' lives to be. But apparently I was SO taken I didn't realize the extent of the incest theme, I did notice it (well, one scene makes it pretty damn clear) but I wasn't put off by the 'vibe'.

Roger Ebert's review (tiny spoilers) of this movie slapped me, I was shocked at how much of the movie's motives I had missed!

The film didn't deal with incest so much as the threat of it, the ghost of a forbidden love that triggers the story forward as the lead character, according to Ebert, tries to avoid falling into the abyss.

Now, there's a movie called Spanking the Monkey that has a very disturbing, full blown mother/son relationship. Yet the movie makes you feel as if you're watching a piece of life, not a movie. It's a great film in that sense, it is also, in my opinion, amazingly acted.

But, is the subject supposed to make a good film? Is is okay to make a film that could even dare suggest that such a thing exists?

...

If you haven't seen Fight Club I won't spoil it for you (GO SEE IT!), haha. Anyway, the relationship between Edward Norton and Brad Pitt in other circumstances would've been viewed as "weird". Why are two men so close and comfortable with each other? So much they don't even need women? They HAVE to be gay, right?...... No, it's a little more complicated than that.

...

Oh my God, I could go on.... Please, I really want to know what you think about how movies portray and observe, let's say, non-traditional couples.

[UnsilentMajorty]

I think the timing of this thread is coincidental considering "Brokeback Mountain" is coming out as this short story and now film is about two Gay cowboys and how they deal with, or rather, don't deal with their true feelings going so far as to marry women and have children -- Very common among Gay men who aren't ready to come out to themselves yet.

What makes Brokeback Mountain significant is it has a ton of young A-List talent such as Jake Gyllenhal, Heath Ledger, Anne Hathaway and Michelle Williams who have no problem with being part of a project whose main, underlying theme is a Same-Sex relationship the two men aren't allowed to publically display in fear for their very lives, unfortunately.

Also, there is a huge double-standard in the U.S., both in real life and fiction, when it comes to homosexuality in general.

Lesbians (two women being together) is more "acceptable" because it is a common straight-male fantasy of two women being together whereas two men portrayed as being together is just "gross" and "unappealing" -- To a lot of people, the same way an interracial kiss, or pairing is still percieved as "unappealing" or "gross". This is why studios come unglued with this kind of stuff because they want to appeal to John and Jane Cornbread who grew up in the middle of rural Iowa (for example) and have never seen or met a Black person, let alone a Gay person (man or woman) and who might be "offended" by the portrayl of these relationships. It's hypocracy to the Nth degree because it is essentially racism/homophobia that the film makers are having to adjust to and not the other way around. It's ironic in a twisted way.

In addition, as far as race as an issue in films... It is only the United States that has an issue with race at all considering the biggest film industry in the entire world is not lily-white Hollywood, but India (Bollywood) as well as Asia. These countries don't think anything about having interacial pairings -- And what really puts Hollywood in perspective is interracial has a much deeper meaing than just a Caucasian with someone else; They feature an Indian and an African; A Chinese and a Japenese; etc, etc.

Now, as far as incest goes...

There have been a few films that tackle this subject ("The Dreamers"), but unlike interracial pairings and homosexualaity this kind of relationship is percieved as universally wrong namely because there are such negative connotations associated with two members of the same family (parents and children; siblings) having a sexual relationship that is mostly due to what we know from biology -- That interbreeding causes undesirable offspring -- And that has been ingrained in our heads both socially and genetically through the years. You will never see a film... Either independent or mainstream... That promotes incest as a positive thing. Films can explore this kind of relationship, but you will never get a subconscious endoresment of it in most countries that have educated, modern industrial societies as a rule.

[ROCKSTAR]

Originally Posted by UnsilentMajorty (View Post) Lesbians (two women being together) is more "acceptable" because it is a common straight-male fantasy of two women being together whereas two men portrayed as being together is just "gross" and "unappealing" -- To a lot of people, the same way an interracial kiss, or pairing is still percieved as "unappealing" or "gross". This is why studios come unglued with this kind of stuff because they want to appeal to John and Jane Cornbread who grew up in the middle of rural Iowa (for example) and have never seen or met a Black person, let alone a Gay person (man or woman) and who might be "offended" by the portrayl of these relationships.

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that some of those studio suits might personally have a problem with those situations as well. When the studios are not very representative of a diverse culture, movies might as well be stuck in the same WASP loop by default.

Of course, there's always indies and if something sticks, studios might follow.

I have seen many interracial couples in movies but it's mostly black woman/white man. The reverse is not as prominent. It's very interesting. That's why a 'popcorn' movie like Save the last Dance can really rise above other teen movies, it's not a usual pairing and the race tension is very sincere and not at all forced. It's there and the movie makes good use of it.

Originally Posted by UnsilentMajorty (View Post) You will never see a film... Either independent or mainstream... That promotes incest as a positive thing. Films can explore this kind of relationship, but you will never get a subconscious endoresment of it in most countries that have educated, modern industrial societies as a rule.

To be honest, I'm not sure I would be entirely comfortable with such a movie. But that's why the subject can be such a powerful weapon. This is not about race, which is yes, a socio-political phenomenon, but technically, just a superficial issue. Incest runs deep. Everyone has a family, you can't avoid forming an opinion. It's a provocative issue that a movie can very well explore, but not really resolve.

"The Dreamers" (maybe spoilerish) makes a big deal about the fact that the brother/sister are not sleeping together. It's a big surprise to the third character who is just a friend, as well as a stranger.

So, should the audience be surprised as well, or relieved? I was a little bit of both, to tell you the truth.

[cherrios]

One of the best movies of time is Guess Whose Coming to Dinner? which was just so shocky because it had just been made legal for a interracial couple to get married in all of the united states when the movie came out.

And it was such a smart film, where they all went through so many emotions, but proved love was the greatest of all. And there is one of the greatest line ever in the movies. "You think of yourself as a black man, I think of myself as a man." No one was going to keep him down, even his father. Such a beautiful movie.

[ROCKSTAR]

I didn't watch "Guess whos coming to dinner" from beginning to end, but I liked what I saw. There's this whole deal about this man. He's just man, he just so happens to be black. Unlike modern movies, this one was really interesting because the drama is concentrated, much like a play, in a specific setting which allows you to feel like you're there.

It's quite meaningful to watch people come and go and voice their opinions, both spoken and unspoken, about this man among them.

It's so great as John stands up for himself and how Christina goes about everything with this big excitement, but everyone else is curious and suspicious. I want to see it from start to finish someday.

In modern movies interracial couples are aware of the challenges they face, they're not innocently hoping that the world has changed and it's not a big deal anymore. It's a contrast to before when in a lot of movies couples were hoping to change the world, now they're just trying to have the most normal life they can.