[Reggie]

Welcome to the Roswell Bureau of Investigation! Here sluething of details, plots, and myths abound. We used to study just "The Importance of Liz to Alien Mythology", but Roswell got more complicated than that. Now, we're trying to untangle everything! [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

Our previous thread is here. Please remember two rules: Don't be annoying, and don't be easily annoyed. You don't have tbe disagreeable just because you disagree: We're all friends here, so let's be friendly. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Post away! [img]smilies/wave.gif[/img]

[ 12-14-2003: Message edited Reggie ]

[shapeshifter]

Way to go, Reggie! [img]smilies/clap.gif[/img] It's about time you started the thread! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The last thread is also archived here.

Did anyone notice how the opening scene for the new Battlestar Gallactica was so much like the scene from Max In The City where Max gets his head examined?

[Reggie]

Not particularly, no. It resembled that scene from MitC to you?

And I usually leave thread starting to the thread parent(s), but since the previous thread had been closed, and was working its way down Page 2, I figured someone had to do something. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[locutus of borg]

The only Roswell "similarity" that I picked up on, was the Cylon woman spy that was with Baltar. She reminded me a whole lot of Tess.

BTW, what did "youse gize" think of the "new" BG?

It took me about an hour to really get into it, but by the time it was over, I thought that it was several orders of magnitude better than the original series. Better plot lines, FAR, FAR better acting and directing, and more reralistic characters, and better dialogue. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But that's just my opinion. What's yours? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

We are the Borg [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img]

[ 12-15-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ]

[Reggie]

BSG was flat, like soda pop without the fizz. The characters didn't have enough screen time devoted to each of them to make any of them really engaging. The plotline was filled with "set pieces": We saw a cute girl, waiting for her parents. Obviously, she gets killed. BTW, the ship she's on: Ever see Run Silent, Run Deep? "Stardoe" did not seem to have much personality, besides being a pale version of Becca Valentine (Andromeda). Making Boomer a secret Cylon is a bad idea, too.

Worst, IMHO, was the presentation of Earth's location as a lie told by Adama, rather than a mystery that Adama and the others can unravel to find Earth. This series is built on a fraud, rather than Hope. Bad as it was, I like the original one better. And it had theme music, too. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[locutus of borg]

I guess that we will just have to "agree to disagree" about that one. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]


We are the Borg [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img]

[shapeshifter]

Originally posted by Reggie: <STRONG>Not particularly, no. It resembled that scene from MitC to you?...</STRONG>

Maybe it wasn't exactly the opening scene of BG? It was the scene where the human with the briefcase is falling asleep at the negotiating table 'cause the Cylons haven't shown up to the annual summit in 40 years. But then in struts a Tall Tess, who procedes to lap dance the unsuspecting dirty old man human. Any way, the scene reminded me of the MITC scene where the human cell phone with the brief case scans Max's head for the royal seal (but without the cool music).

BTW, I read that BG was originally written by someone with Mormon roots, hence the parallel to the exiles of the 12 tribes of Israel stumbling upon the lost tribe in the new world. The idea of the Roswell/Antarian royal four from the 5 planets isn't that different, especially if you consider the humans to be descended from aliens, as Zero liked to speculate.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm reading Douglas Adams The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. He refers to "Antarean lizards."

Also, on page 223, I had a Roswellian Sexual Healing moment in a campy sort of way when reading:

"Another burst of applause died away quickly as the lights dimmed down further. On every table candles ignited themselves spontaneously, eliciting a slight gasp from all the diners and wreathing them in a thousand tiny flickering lights and a million intimate dark shadows. A tremor of excitement thrilled through the darkened Restaurant as the vast golden dome above them began very very slowly to dim, to darken, to fade. "Max's voice was hushed as he continued."

[ 12-15-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ]

[locutus of borg]

Originally posted by Reggie: <STRONG>Not particularly, no. It resembled that scene from MitC to you? And I usually leave thread starting to the thread parent(s), but since the previous thread had been closed, and was working its way down Page 2, I figured someone had to do something. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]</STRONG>

And this one is working it's way down page 2 as well. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] We need some activity here, Dudes and Dudettes!

We are the Borg [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img]

[greenglow]

Hey [img]smilies/wave.gif[/img]

Can't comment on BSG... maybe someone will air it here next year [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Shapeshifter, that's so odd! [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

Hi LOB!

Thanks for the new thread Reggie!

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited greenglow ]

[locutus of borg]

[img]smilies/wave.gif[/img] Greenglow

[img]smilies/wave.gif[/img] Shapeshifter

[img]smilies/wave.gif[/img] Reggie

We are the Borg [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img]

[shapeshifter]

I'm leaving town for 2 weeks tomorrow, but will probably be able to check in. I'm working on a website for my brother-in-law, and needed a Welsh dragon. This one:
reminds me a lot of the image on Liz's window.
I can't find a screen cap of it at the moment. Anyone else?

And now I'm thinking about this bit of dialog regarding the movie, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon:

• MAX: You are so full of it.
  MICHAEL: I just call it like I see it.
  MAX: You can't compare The Matrix with Crouching Tiger.
  MICHAEL: Crapping Tiger is a chick flick with kung fu.
  MAX: First of all, Crapping…Crouching Tiger is actually about something: Love, honor, duty.
  MICHAEL: Matrix is about something: Illusion, reality, gunfire.
  MAX: You simply cannot prefer Keanu Reeves to Michelle Yeoh. You can't. I won't let you.

I'm not familiar with the Crouching Tiger flick, but I gather there's a heroine, symbolized by a dragon, perhaps?, which Liz personifies in Roswell.

[Citrus and Vine]

This one: reminds me a lot of the image on Liz's window. I can't find a screen cap of it at the moment. Anyone else?

Here's one from Crashdown Media*Blvd site. It is a view of the dragon from outside the window—no color, mostly silhouette
http://crashdown.media*blvd.com/scre...12/312_446.jpg

(remove the *)

[Algieba]

I watched BSG hoping for a new scifi story I could get into but was very disappointed.

I liked the Cylon fighters, the visuals of weapons streaking toward targets with trails of light, some of the special effects, but the characters were not appealing to me.

I did see some comparisons to Roswell but mostly in the dark themes of death and betrayal. The death of the human race was bleak and painful but I was able to get a sense of what it would really be like to have a whole race of people, a whole planet, destroyed. If you think of Roswell in that light, there was the threat of the destruction of the human race from TEOTH. It is more sobering to contemplate when human suffering is shown instead of just talked about.

I know they were trying to make the characters more realistic and flawed in BSG but they flawed them right out of whatever sympathy I might have been able to muster for them. An alcoholic second in command, a leader who lies to his people because he can't inspire them with the truth, a president who admits she's more concerned about her own mortality than the end of the world and a so called hero hot shot pilot who admits she caused the death of someone she loved because she wanted him to be something he couldn't ever be.

Starbuck's confession about Apollo's brother is something you'd like to think doesn't happen but it does. I knew a helicopter pilot who trained others and was unable to flunk anyone unless they were grossly incompetent. He just couldn't bring himself to wash someone out. Not a nice thought since those same helicopters in training fly right over my house on their practice sessions.
The only Cylons I liked were the computer imaged ones that came before the human looking ones. They were cool and scarier looking than the sexy blond.

Max jumping from his own body to Clayton's was quite a stretch for me but BSG went even further. Machines created by humans somehow learn to make themselves immortal by moving their consciousness to another body. I just find that so unbelievable that it made the Cylons seem ridiculous.

The original BSG was more of a family show and kids loved it. The mature nature of the new one excludes kids so I take it they're trying to appeal to adults, specifically males, given the sexual nature of the new Cylons (there wasn't a single sexy male Cylon) and more specifically, white males, since there wasn't a single major black character. I guess they've targeted a certain audience that they think will draw advertisers, but I would have liked something I could recommend to my young, racially diverse students.
Since it got good ratings, a lot of people must disagree with me. I did like parts of if but I like to like the characters in a story, at least some of them. I liked the characters in Roswell, all of them. That and the scifi is what keeps me watching it and talking about it long past it's cancellation. So far, BSG makes me feel too negative to actually want to watch it as a series.

[locutus of borg]

Algieba,

I guess the reason I liked BG so much better than the original was because it was more adult.

The original, with Lorne Greene, was so juvenile, and so fanatically politically correct that it turned off many adults.

I agree with you that it's not exactly a family program, but most science fiction isn't. Roswell was one of the great exceptions.

Roswell appealed to many 10 year olds, and to many 60 year olds. Very few SciFi programs can do that.

We are the Borg [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img]

[ 12-24-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ]

[Reggie]

Ok, here comes the MondoPost! [img]smilies/goof.gif[/img]

The Real Momo:
I am taking Nasedo's pitch to Max to take on his marital duties as foreshadowing of what was to come. Destiny marks the mission to bring back the Royal 4 to Antar. Skin & Bones to lock in Max & Tess's relationship, pushing for consummation of said relationship in order to produce an heir.

Perhaps eventually; but since both Max and Tess are in human bodies, an heir of their flesh would be human. I would expect that such an heir should properly be alien: a "Skin" occupant, a Shapeshifter, a Twylonian, whatever. So, the actual production of an heir should be delayed until both Max and Tess were re-installed in their proper alien bodies (presumably, clones of their original bodies). Resumption of Max's original relationship with his "young bride" is a seperate issue, and could be addressed while they were in any form, human or alien.

In either case, I think there is also probably enough initial background to present the validity of the Nasedo Pact as being real and not just a mindwarped Tess, especially if Tess is considered as "all powerful" because of her "fireball". This CHAD is so "openended" that there are several directions to take the story.

I see what you mean, but I'm a little more sanguine about figuring things out. Tess can't be "all-powerful", because she's like the other Podsters who aren't. The fireball is explicable as an example of "hysterical strength", which is a familiar human property. Otherwise, we'd have to consider it a straight deus-ex-machina; to extract the Podsters from their defeat by Nikolas's Skins. This would imply that JK and the Moonshine Band were nothing more than unimaginitive hacks who had no better idea. [img]smilies/goof.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

The history of Nasedo shows us that in 1959 he was in big trouble. He kills Atherton. He's being pursued by an unseen enemy - FBI, military, Skins? All three? Then he vanishes. Where? If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago from Departure that puts the Nasedo Pact as being put in place about 1960-1962. The next time we know Nasedo's hanging around the Southwest in in 1970 when Sheila Harding is killed, then in 1972 when Nasedo begins knocking off the Special Unit operatives. So between 1959 and 1970, Nasedo is MIA.

So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Riverdog tells Max & Liz that Nasedo is being hunted by "unknown" people. He has to leave town. He kills Atherton because he knows too much (possibly threatens to expose him or turn him in?). Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins who have been searching for the pod squad since 1950. He's held in captivity until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir. For the moment, let's assume he does this under duress.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! That's a whole lot of assumptions there! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
You say, "If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago", but that's what we're trying to establish. Taking the conclusion as part of the premise is circular logic; not sound practice. Let's start with what we do and don't know.

First, we don't know who killed Atherton or why. If we've got two shapeshifters running around loose, then it could have been either one of them. Since one was captured by the Army (in 1947), they likely lost touch with each other. Tic-tac could have been cultivating Atherton (and River Dog) as allies, and Harding killed Atherton because he'd "discovered" too much and was publishing it. Something similar could have happened with Sheila Harding; or one of them could have thought she was a Skin. We know that the Army was persuing aliens, and that the Army does not have civilian police power. (See "posse comitatus laws".) It's appropriate and likely that after the initial Roswell investigation wound up, the persuit was handed off to the FBI. Since J. Edgar Hoover was in charge for ages, it's also possible that the head (and staff) of the alien-hunting unit would also be retained over the years. It makes security simpler, after all.

By this time, the Skins have inflitrated positions of "importance" as noted in Whitaker's diaries including the government. So it's also possible, with their government access, that the Skins are behind The Special Unit.

It makes more sense if the Skins, once they had established themselves, used the pre-existing FBI unit to find the podsters. As long as the natives are doing the work, why not let them?

Since the Shapeshifters were escaping from K' var, it's likely that they expected to be followed. (Heck, that's probably why they crashed or were shot down in the first place!) They would have expected the Skins. With the FBI also on their trail, it's no wonder that they both vanish. In that time frame, it shouldn't be hard: they could hide as migrant farm workers, refugees from Europe (which would cover a lot), or as truck drivers. At the time, multiple (false) doccumentation for drivers was normal. A truck driver who claimed to be a refugee from (say) Czechoslovakia would have an odd accent, iffy paperwork, and miss common cultural references; but still be capable of reading a map, have excellent mechanical abilities, good work ethics, etc. This is a good employee! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

We don't know why Sheila Harding died. It did attract the attention of the FBI, though. Who benefited? This may be why someone started to kill the Special Unit agents; they were closing in, and Harding (?) had to defend himself. It could even be that she was killed by a Skin, to incriminate one of the shapeshifters or just to "prime the pump" somehow. It did get her husband going, and that created another problem for the aliens.

So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins (...) until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir.

This doesn't make sense. Since Nikolas had "Nacedo", and could mindrape him to find out the location of The Granolyth and all the Podsters, why deal? Why wait? Interrogate him, and kill them or bring them home for disposal. The Skins get home before there's any problem with their husks. Sounds good to me!

(Remember the Whitaker diaries mention that the Skins found some pods about "20 years ago" [about 1970]). We know the Dupes fell into Skin hands.

Are the "Whitaker diaries" canon? I've heard of them; never bothered to read them as that site seemed more like fanfic than anything else. And Ava referred to her "Protector", not Nikolas or any skin. There's too much missing info about the Dupes; it could even be that the Dupes sought out the Skins, to bargain for a trip home. Clearly, Lonnie was working on that possibility.

Our assumption has been that Nasedo only learns about the pod squad when Michael signals Nasedo from the library and Nasedo returns the signal in "Into the Woods" near the cave. We see, presumably Nasedo, burn the pod squad's picture in "Blind Date." However, how would Nasedo "see" this symbol if he was not in Roswell and the signal could be seen only by the air? Well, I think he may have already been in Roswell. I think Nasedo knew about Max and Liz from the beginning. If you recall, Nasedo claimed to work for the government. If that's true, then it's possible he had information based on Valenti's contact with Special Unit agent Stevens. Which means that Nasedo's photographs may have been taken from the Special Unit.

From this point, when Nasedo burns the photograph, we need to decide what Nasedo's intentions really were. The burning of the photograph could be taken as malicious intent.

We've believed that Tic-tac had been "around" for some time. It could just as easily be that Tic-tac was making the original light show (in ITW), to alert Harding that it was time to come in from the cold, and bring Tess. He may have had no other way to contact Harding, since he moved around so much. (Both Shapeshifters knew about all the Podsters from the beginning, of course!) The reply by Michael on the Library lawn may have been unexpected by the shapeshifters; but a Skin agent (local, or sent in) would have recognised it, and reacted with malice. Since CongresSkin Whitaker had been in the area, it makes sense to believe that there were other Skins around; and that they had photos or "artist's concepts" of the podsters. There is no need to suppose one of the Shapeshifters is a double agent, when there are legitimate villains in the game.

As for Liz, Nasedo would never have accepted Liz for Tess. "She doesn't belong here," he says in "Destiny" and he means it. She's only tolerated because of Max . Had Nasedo lived, this probably would have developed into more of an issue. TicTac, however, probably would have approved of the relationship.

As King, it's Max's prerogative to take a wife without a veto by his retainers. Put that way, Mr. Harding would have submitted; especialy since Tess and Kyle were developing a relationship. With Tess provided for and happy, honor would be satisfied; and the eight could have proceded to fulfill whatever destinies awaited them.

Citrus and Vine:
Hi Reggie!
I suspect you wish to clear Tess of responsibility for intending to hand Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar. Hence, you blame Nicholas and say he mindwarped Tess.

I believe that it makes far more sense, both within the story and as a good story itself, to have Nikolas behind Tess's actions; as his CW was behind the attempt to "turn" Isabel, and he himself was behind the attempt to entrap Max. In this third try, his attempt was successful. In my fanfics, Tess is redeemed, and Nikolas would (eventually) go after Michael. It's a meta- story arc, if you see what I mean.

If Nicholas had mindwarped Tess into thinking Nasedo made a deal with Kivar, then Tess had the ability to decide what she wanted to do with the information. Tess, however, shows she is cognizant of what she is doing. She knowingly continued to mindwarp Alex to keep him from talking. She knowingly continued mindwarping Kyle to keep him from talking.

Absolutely correct ! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (Bet you didn't expect me to agree, did you? [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] )
CW tried to turn Isabel, by appealing to her vanity. She was so beautiful, a king wanted her. Nikolas appealed to Max's appetite for power, without responsibility. He would be a pampered figurehead, and K' var would do the hard work of governing. Likewise, the attempt on Tess would appeal to her weakness: a willingness to be lead; not leadership, but followership if you will. "What do we do now, Max?" was her motto! All Nikolas had to do was MW her to convince her that her authority figure "father" had made a deal. It's in Tess's nature to follow orders.

Likewise, it's not in Alex's nature to drop school, friends and family to go off to work in Las Cruces. This is not something Tess could have managed at her power's strength. Nikolas, on the other hand, could easily manage that; as well as organizing the college accomidations, computer time, the entire use of not-Leanna, etc. Again, the villain behind the scenes is Nikolas: good storytelling. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Locutus of Borg:
The original, with Lorne Greene, was so juvenile, and so fanatically politically correct that it turned off many adults.

I agree with you that it's not exactly a family program, but most science fiction isn't. Roswell was one of the great exceptions.

Sure, the original BSG was rather juvenile, but I took it as camp. C'mon now: the Lords of COBOL? Exiled after the Fortran Wars, right? [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

And the vast majority of sci-fi is family-friendly. Remember, it's written in magazines, with minimal romance; let alone [img]smilies/look.gif[/img] s-x. The plots are action-oriented, and/or scientific puzzles. Roswell added first-rate romance to mediocre fantasy to produce S1. In S2, they added non-science fiction, which rapidly degenerated into nonsense fiction. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]