Alexander

I'm so happy this thread is going strong. Let's keep it up.

Current games on the table to discuss...

KOTOR
KOTOR II, the Sith Lords
Star Wars Republic Commando

Feel free to talk about ANY Star Wars Games you're playing or have played or you're waiting to come out.

Strategies, Tips and Hints will be provided upon request.

DO NOT GIVE AWAY GAME SPOILER INFO. I will hunt you down and cut you into pieces using my dual bladed orange lightsaber!

PS...Most of all, Let's have fun here!

Now Post away...

PS part II, in most recent news...I've granted Jerry the lowest of ranks...as Padawan for finally completing KOTOR II. Do that again 5 times and we'll discuss about a seat at the "council"

Alex

UnsilentMajorty

You should go tell them yourself

On second thought... There are to many Obsidian Entertainment fanboys and fangirls on their forums. Stay right here

It is no big secret that a lot of the reviews TSL got were from reviewers who were either paid by the Dark Side LA marketing machine, or who just didn't finish the game.

The game is inferior to the first one. Period.

I am replaying the first one again and the difference is night and day. Literally.

Bioware just had a much bigger and more complete vision of what they wanted to do... As well as three full years to develop the game... But even if OE had three years to develop the game... I think the biggest complaint is that the story is so un-Star Wars-like that it wouldn't matter if they had three decades, or not.

I know whether or not you liked the storyline is subjective... But I think this is part of the game's main problem:

The game basically addresses the "grey" side of The Force that the movies and KOTOR doesn't address. However, the game is designed and based around an allignment meter that measures acts in extremes (LS or DS). The influence system is sketchy at best as we discussed in the previous thread.

I think these three things are actually all working AGAINST each other and providing a good player experience and this is why the game feels so disjointed -- best word for it -- Even if the cut-content was still intact.

I also think TSL has no replay value past one play through as either DS or LS for the simple fact the ending really doesn't change all that much because it was never finished if we are going to be blunt (This is not a Spoiler; this is just fact if you've played the game through and saved right before the end to try each choice).

Anyway...

I know you guys are sick of me babbling on and on about how much I dislike TSL... But I do it because this game had SOOOOOO much potential, but it was just wasted in LA's quest for greed and power because they rushed the game and OE wasn't allowed to finish it in every sense of the word.

Alexander

What would you like to see in KOTOR III when that comes out eventually...b/c we all know that it will?

Subject

1. Better Storyline then KOTOR II
2. Option to create a non-human character.

That's all I really want... other things would be nice as well but I'll settle for that.

Alexander

1. I didn't think the story was "bad"...it just didn't evolve well during the game.
2. That sounds like a good option, however, since you'll most likely pick up as "Revan" the next game...I don't see it happening. I do think it'll be neat to have a non-human force sensitive creature in the party...so maybe you can "turn them" into a Jedi...I know I wouldn't mind having a Master Yoda on board

Myself, I'd like to see some of the first game characters return, and not just in cut scenes...and NOT just the droids I'd start with Bastilla and Carth Onasi...then Canderous.

Especially if you play the third game as "Revan" again. Bastilla should be the main female party character who starts out with you from the beginning and this time...stays with you throughout the game

Carth and Canderous are optional but I like for both of them to return I like Canderous more than I did the Mandalorian character we got in the second game

Alex

UnsilentMajorty

That Mandalorian (Mandalore) *IS* Canderous.

You find this out if you gain enough influence with him... Except that by the time you get Mandalore in your party, the game is almost over because it is way too short (due to the cut-endings).

Subject

The problem with the storyline, from a technical perspective, is that it is buried within the Influence system and this is what I consider a major game design flaw more than the story itself -- Which is also lacking, but that is another discussion altogether.

The Influence system sounds great in theory... But the way it is implemented in this game is very obtrusive and actually prevents you from moving on and finding out the bigger story as you go, cut-endings or not.

For example... Do you guys know the backstory to Goto?

I won't spoil it for you, but it is one of those missing pieces to the puzzle that ties the whole, bigger plot together... Yet, if you don't spend time with Goto in your party and or gain enough Influence with it... You'd never know what it *really* is and *how* it ties into the bigger story that TSL is trying to tell. That's my point.

The same thing with Kriea. It is impossible to completely role play a LS character because you are forced to take DS hits to gain influence with her.

This is what I meant that the Influence and game design itself (the DS/LS meter) are almost working against one another at the player's expense (of not finding out the whole story).

I know that one of the reasons this was done was to provide replayability; Each time you put different members of your party with you and hope to gain influence to unlock their backstories... But again, that is also part of the whole problem of the story not really making any sense because it is *dependent* on this system to flesh it out.

I realize that gamers -- myself included -- Don't want things spelled out for them and that gradually learning a party member's backstory is part of the fun of any RPG.

However, again, TSL's problem is that there is no other alternative way *to* learn vital parts of the plot and party member backstories without "metagaming" the Influence system and then playing the "rest" of the game. These two things should be intertwined, but they are not and I believe this is what hurst this game most of all.

In fact, Cryostar basically said this when he/she said just to stop playing the main game and concentrate on the NPCs who you want to make Jedi. A good, well-thought out RPG organically integrates these things -- Like the original KOTOR -- And a player should not have to just "stop" and concentrate on one aspect or another in my opinion.

As for what I would like to see in KOTOR III...

One of the big problems with doing sequels to KOTOR is that Bioware actually stated that KOTOR is/was a stand-alone game. This is one of the reasons they let Obsidian Entertainment do it.

The problems with doing a sequel to an RPG is that there are too many variables that will contradict one another unless they either use totally new characters, especially, the main player character like the Exile, and or they resort to the cliched "main character has amnesia, therefore, whatever happened to them before (in the previous games) doesn't really matter".

This is what OE tried to do with this game because if you think about it... A lot of what happened in KOTOR doesn't have any real effect on the current universe the Exile inhabits... Yet it is only a few (five) years after KOTOR.

This is one area where a huge contradiction is evident: If you played a DS Revan who retook the Sith Throne from Malak, then you obstensibly conquered the Republic at the end of the first game... Yet that isn't reflected at all in most of the dialogue and situations you're put in in TSL; this is a game limitation most of all, but is kind of the point I am trying to make.

With that said...

I hope KOTOR III learns the mistakes of TSL and if OE does it... Gets away from the more doom-and-gloom stories they are known for (Fallout 1 and 2; Ice Wind Dale) and gives us a more emotionally satisfying SW story and gaming experience.

At this point, I don't want to talk about specifics because I am really upset with how baddly TSL turned out because it didn't have to be this way, but this is 2005 and the games industry is driven more by bottom lines than quality and art

Cryostar

Hey, your apprentice made a jedi out of more characters than you did....so hush.

If I had my choice...this is how I'd improve KOTOR III...

a) put it back in BIOWARE's court, they're good, I trust them.
b) advance the KOTOR storyline...take us to Revan, where do they walk
c) if not b, then allow us to super party, to search for Revan and the Exile.
d) superparty is any of the previous party members...I would love to take juhani and Visas in a party.
e) Fix the movement bugs and object handling...as a developer, this is embarrassing.
f) Fix the straight line attack vectoring that went out 10 years ago with DOOM II.
g) Improve the cut scene cinematics...i.e. don't drop it to 640x480.
h) Allow us to screen shot and store them
i) Allow us a better model of making a character, think jedi academy, more options
j) Have someone that understands Starwars write the plot.
k) Have some unlockable stuff....downloads, etc.

It's a short list, i know...but hopefully it can be fulfilled....

btw....I think I'll be making a visas wallpaper, yum.

Hey, has anyone played battlegrounds recently? The one with severence tann in it?

UnsilentMajorty

One last thing about TSL and I promise I'll put it to rest (unless you guys want to talk level-up strategies and character creations):

The big issue I had with the story TSL is trying to tell is that not only is it very un-SW-like... It makes no real sense no matter what sci-fi/fantasy universe it's placed in.

The whole focus of the story is The Force itself. Okay. The Force is a very prominent element of the SW universe. Fine. I have no problem with that.

However, it starts to fall apart because it then takes what is an already abstact concept, The Force, and tries to give it a kind of exetential conflict that I think is actually too brainy for a video game... And one as limited as KOTOR is... To tackle.

I'm of course talking about the whole Wound in the Force theme the game tries to shove down your throat via Nihilus and the Exile cutting himself off from it.

As I said, I don't mind a story that addresses something the films, novels and comics don't cover. That's the point of playing the KOTOR games; they should be original and give us original content as far as the SW universe is concerned...

But what happens with TSL is that it takes something that shouldn't be really "explored" and tries to make it the focus of the game and actually "devalues" it's fictional weight if you will. It's basically like when George Lucas tried to explain The Force in Episode I with the Medichlorians just because he figured pre-millennium audience wouldn't accept The Force as being an abstract, unexplainable thing.

I believe this main element is why the game's storyline isn't as concrete and or enough to base a whole game on from the start.

But what is done is done.

Moving on...

Cryostar

I was upset because I couldn't a) change Visas's armour ( I wanted her in the dancer out fit) and b) I never saw what she really looked like under the hood.

UnsilentMajorty

Cryostar

If you want to have a fun time replaying the original KOTOR... Here are some of the Mods I recommend that truly ehnahce the game and make it even better:

Force Sensitive Mod -- This mod gives you Force Powers at the start of the game. You don't get a lightsaber, and technically aren't a Jedi, but you can use things like Heal and other no-offensive Force powers because the Mod assumes that you, Revan, are in fact a Jedi, but because the Council wiped your memory, you just don't know this yet... But you can still use the Force. It's a great Mod and falls in line with the storyline as well which is a plus.

Jedi Mod -- Similar to the Force Sensative Mod (above). This makes all of the starting classes corresponding Jedi Classes from the start of the game.

Scondrel = Counselor
Scout = Sentinel
Soldier = Guardian

Basically, this Mod is like The Sith Lords in that you start out as a Jedi, but don't have a lightsaber or robes... But it is different from the Force Sensative Mod because you level up as your class as you progress through out the game from the very start. This adds a whole new depth to the original game and makes it more strategic and fun to play as "two" classes.

Class Difference Mod -- This mod actually makes the three Jedi classes more distinct by adjusting the powers, feats and Force Points each class is given to make them more unique.

For example, it gives more Force Powers and points to a Counselor at level up because a Jedi Counselor (technically a Cleric/Mage) is supposed to use the Force more than his/her raw combat abilities. It does the same for Sentinel and Guardian classes as it gives them less Force Powers and more skill points, etc, etc.

I use both the Jedi Mod and Class Difference Mod together and it makes being a Jedi actually mean something when the time comes. Also, it makes choosing your Jedi class more tactical because in my case, since I am a Counselor/Guardian combo... I'm still going to have to decide what emphasis to put my points on when I level up: Combat feats and powers, or more Force Powers?

The great thing about these mods is that they don't effect how you play the game LS, DS or even neutral (a little of both).

All the mods are available at:

http://www.pcgamemods.com/6/

Cryostar

Thanks majority....i'll have to try those out.....I'm starting kotor II as a male this time to see what I missed last time.

Alexander

I've had one of my most complete characters in KOTOR II and this time, I was able to convert everyone in my party that can be converted as Jedi...it was awesome

I also managed to get all the lightsaber color crystals that are available in the game...including the elusive "silver" crystal...I actually have two of them

Alex

UnsilentMajorty

Well, for one, you get the Handmaiden instead of that fruity, puppy-dog sap Disciple

Strifer

As Strifer mentioned on the Games board... KOTOR III is in the works. I just hope that Obsidian Entertainment doesn't do it and that LA gives a more realistic time frame for a game of that size and scope -- Years and not just one year.

TSL damaged the KOTOR franchise, regardless if you like the game or not in that a majority of people didn't for the reasons I've discussed ad nauseum before.

Mostly, it damaged LA's reputation for putting out quality games as most of the recent SW games are pretty bad. Even Republic Commando is too short. Anyone with decent gaming skills or FPS experience can finish the single player of RC in a day (8 hours or less) and the MP just doesn't have very many options to keep players playing like other, more robust games in the FPS genre.

I could care less about the lame RTS game that is going to be released around the time of "Revenge of the Sith" just to cash in on the popularity of the movie. Galatic Battlegrounds was terrible. What makes them (LA) think another, half-baked movie tie-in RTS is going to suddenly change that?

If LA was smart and not a pawn of the Darkside... They would have given Obsidian until May -- When RoTS comes out -- To finish TSL properly because that game and movie are more of a match than some pathetic RTS game that they are releasing instead. But alas. That would be the logical thing to do and whenever there is greed and money at stake, logic often goes out the window

Alexander

My favorite characters in KOTOR II are...Brianna Mira and Visas I have to say that the voice acting in the KOTOR series is some of the best ever! Kelly Hu as the voice of Visas Marr is sexy as it can be

Now that I happen to think of it, even though I never got Mandalo to confess that he was Canderous...the voice is the same as the first game so I should have picked up on that.

I still say that GOTO has to be the most useless party character of all time

In the third game, I agree...give the developers at least 2 full years to make it great...b/c it has to be. It can't be just "good" like KOTOR II is. That's why people don't like it as much. All of our complaints aside...to put it in simple words...KOTOR I was GAME OF THE YEAR people...how do you top that??? Not by making a good game...but by making another GREAT game...which they obvioulsy didn't. Now, myself, I'm probably the most die hard KOTOR series fan out there and I like the game, not as much as the first one but it's definitely a fun game. The third one has to be great.

I know this will never happen, but I'd like MORE jedi in the third game. In the party, how great it would be if we had someone like Mastar Vandar show up from the first game and be in the party...then I can virtually play the game as YODA! How amazing would that be Plus, I'll be like a little creature running around with lightsabers!

Actually, I'd like to have a combination of party members...From the first game I definitely want Bastilla, Juhani and Jolee Bindo back From the second game I want Brianna, Visas and Mira back. I want Canderous before this whole "Mandalo" stuff. I don't want droids and or people who die easy like "Bao Dur/Atton" Oh, I almost forgot...gotta have Carth back!

Alex

Cryostar

Brianna == Handmaiden?

Kelly Hu was the voice of Visas? I was wondering why I liked her so much.

So KOTOR III is in the works? Very interestiing.

I two got two silver crystals, though it wasn't until the Sith Academy that I got it....I also got a Viridian crystal....not as cool though as the solid white blade.

If I had to pick who I wanted for KOTOR III, it'd be all jedi...

Visas, Juhani, Jolee, Bastila for sure....then I'd bring in HK-47, Bao Dur, Canderous...I never liked Carth much, but that's ok. And I second G0-T0 being the most useless part member ever...I don't think I used him once.