Star Wars - Constructive Criticism of the Prequels.

LittleMilkJug · 05-06-2003, 06:20 AM

Come on, I know you want to. Lets get this clear, I am writing this as an avid fan of Star Wars. Star Wars - Episode 4 - A New Hope, is still IMO the best film ever. Other films come and other films go - Some I have really loved ie Terminator, Alien Saga, The Mummy Films, LOTR fims and X-Men. But NONE have had the same impact on me or the film industry in general. Will I love LOTR or X-Men as I love the Original Trilogy in, lets say, 10 years time? I really dont know. This brings me to my expectations that I had for the prequels. I think overall I was let down. The Phantom Menance does get better with repeated viewings and Attack of the Clones was fantastic eye-candy. But, in both films, there was something lacking. 1999 and 2002 are a world away from 1977. Also Star Wars - Episode 4 came out as a 'stand alone film'. By the time APM and AOTC came out there had been hundreds of films inspired by Episode 4. I think George Lucas should have gone more 'Manga' instead of 'Flash Gordon'. And I think he should have let go of his tight hold of the Star Wars universe and let other people direct and even write his films. Nobody will ever take away his right to sit on the 'Star Wars throne' everybody knows he created this magnificent story. But I think even he knows that he has his limitations as a film maker..when it comes to direction and character developement not ideas and special FX.
I would really like to hear your thoughts.

Devon [img]smilies/flowers.gif[/img]

[ 05-06-2003: Message edited LittleMilkJug ]

Darth Liz · 05-06-2003, 10:33 AM

[img]smilies/thumbs_up.gif[/img] Good thread.
You're right TMP does get better with repeat viewings. But like you said the Original were far better and more enjoyable. I would like to see someone else direct Episode III and not uncle George but that's not gonna happen. I mean yeah these are his movies, his vision, his creation but a little help wouldn't hurt. He has excellent actors in Ewan, Hayden, Sam L, etc. But he needs better direction. When I first saw Episode II I didn't really like how Hayden delivered some of his lines making him look like a not so good actor.

[ 05-06-2003: Message edited Darth Liz ]

LittleMilkJug · 05-08-2003, 03:44 AM

What? Nobody except Liz has anything to say on this matter? [img]smilies/jaw_drop.gif[/img]

TheCheshireKitten · 05-10-2003, 05:26 PM

Okay, I've been avoiding doing this because I have a lot of criticism for the prequels and I'm not sure if I can put it into words without forming an extremely long essay. I'll try. This doesn't mean I hate the movies, but I do think that these films should have been SO much better than what they are.

I think there's one criticism though that can mostly explain away all of the others, and that's his focus on flash effects instead of what should be the heart of the films - the characters. Through the characters you are given a story, and through the characters you enter the world in which the movie takes place. With the original trilogy, the effects were revolutionary for its day, but it's the story of Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and the beautiful Princess Leia against Darth Vader that gives the trilogy its heart and soul. They were 3 demensional, well developed characters with memorable or witty dialogue and excellent chemistry and interesting connections. The galaxy was a big place but its through these characters that we experience it, and not only through the effects and various background creatures.

In the prequels, I think we kind of have the opposite thing going on. The effects have taken center stage, and GL seems to flaunt them in every which way he can, along with every creative little computer creature that the crew can come up with. The characters of Obi-wan, Anakin, Padme', etc...seem to take a backseat to these things. They're not 3 demensional, some aren't even 2 demensional. The time and effort isn't spent on caring about these people.

Obi-wan has been given so little development (I still maintain that Obi-wan should have had Qui-gon's role in TPM, and that Qui-gon should have been nothing more than a council member if there at all). IN TPM he was only a Padawan Learner without much screen time so we didn't get a chance to know him or his feelings. He didn't want to train Anakin and only did to honor Qui-gon, and he and Anakin are supposed to be friends? Where is this friendship? I suppose Lucas just lets it be assumed that it happened off screen. But offscreen doesn't work in a film. Important feelings between two characters should be shown, we shouldn't have to assume. In Episode 2 Obi-wan comes off as a patronizing teacher who belittles his pupil and treats him as though he's still a little boy. And I'm supposed to believe there's friendship? Blah. And if I hear the words "my padawan" one more time, I won't be responsible for what I do. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Speaking of our "little boy" Anakin, IMO, should not have been a child in Episode 1. He should have been an older teen. What happened to his mother could have been shown effectively in dreams. This way, more time and thought could have went into making Anakin a more conflicted character in Episode 2. The darker side of Anakin has not been effectively shown, IMO. He feels Obi-wan is patronizing (which he certainly is to me), and he's scared for his mother who ends up being murdered in the movie. These things do not the dark side make. The only scene that gave even a slight hint of Darth Vader is the confession scene to Padme', because you saw his capability for evil, but he was also remorseful. Unfortunately, this was the only scene in the entire film that made me believe this man was going to be Darth Vader.

Padme' Amidala.....is one of the worst characters in Episode 2. I think her role was much better in Episode 1, she had more of a commanding presence and seemed to be more lively than she was in the second film. Whether it's GL's fault, or Portman's , or both (I'm thinking both, but leaning more towards Portman's), Padme' wears the same facial expression and uses the same tone of voice through the entire film. It seems as if there's no effort at all to make this character a living, breathing person, someone you can feel for. Padme' has hardly any reaction. To anything. And although I know GL isn't good with these characters, clearly Christensen and McGregor made an effort with what they were given. Portman just seems to want to be somewhere else. It greatly affects the supposed "Forbidden Love" between Anakin and Padme', because whenever he's trying to woo her she looks as if she's in history class listening to a lecture. There should be some reaction, even if it's in horror or disgust.

Rant over. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-10-2003: Message edited TheCheshireKitten ]

TheCheshireKitten · 05-15-2003, 05:22 PM

Did I scare everyone away? [img]smilies/pout.gif[/img]

LittleMilkJug · 05-16-2003, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheCheshireKitten:
Did I scare everyone away? [img]smilies/pout.gif[/img]

No of course not. I agree totally with what you have written. I think every Star Wars fan has some form of criticism for the prequels. The magic of the original trilogy is missing. And I'm not talking about the FX. In A New Hope you can almost see the tape and string holding the spaceships together [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] But it still has that 'something' special which is lacking now. IMO.

Pop-Punk Culture Zombie · 05-25-2003, 05:30 PM

I agree with TheCheshireKitten. I watched an interview a few years ago with GL and he said, "This is a story about a family." (I'm paraphrasing.) So ... if it's about a family, why is the emphasis on flashy effects in the prequels?

My $0.02. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

*Shannon* · 06-30-2003, 04:30 PM

Oh hell yes, thank you Devon, for this thread. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I tried to read all of your nice input, but I got too impatient, lol. There's not too much I have to say, but I really, really have to say it. It's what I see everytime I watch TPM and AotC.

Star Wars...*sigh* It has all this potential! It's about redemption and light vs. darkness, dysfunctional families, forbidden love, skewed relationships, consequences, repercussions, etc. All of these have to do with characters. I totally agree with TheChesireKitten, who said that GL needs to focus more on characters. They are the HEART of this entire saga, and I felt that we saw more of them in the Classic Trilogy than in the prequels. It's like he's overpowering all of the character development and true human emotion with this razzle-dazzle, fancy-schmancy art direction and special effects. The people who watch SW aren't ALL 7-year-old kids who just want to see some lightsaber action and go. A lot of us have invested a lot of time, energy, and PASSION into this saga. A saga of truth and emotion and control. There are people out there that watch this movie and go write incredible fanfictions that flesh out the characters so beautifully. In GL's attempt to make everything seem larger than life and incredible in terms of visuals, he forgets about what can REALLY make the saga seem larger than life- the emotion of the characters! I remember in a commentary behind the scenes thing GL himself admitted that he was more a visual artist than a literary artist, or something to that nature, and I got really mad when I heard that. It sounded like he was saying that Star Wars isn't guaranteed to have the best dialogue, but that shouldn't matter, because the visuals are the key ingredient. There's a grain of truth in that statement, because based on the subject matter, visuals are very important. But I think substance- character development, attention, detail, emotion- is more important, and will really make it come alive.

So therefore, I think GL needs help with the dialogue. A huge franchise like Star Wars should not be stilted by its dialogue. All you need is a good solid writer, some collaboration, character development, logical flow, attention, etc. and you've got it made. This leads me to ITA another point several people have made, about GL doing it all himself. He isn't the creator of SW. SW is a collaborative effort on many parts, and I don't think he should be like, the one who has the final say on everything, the overbearing "father" of the series, because he isn't. As he considers himself a more visual rather than literary guy, he should have close, and I mean really close professional ties with a writer who can work on the dialogue while he covers the visual. Therefore, SW hits those two bases with relative ease. There is a grandness and a scope of the saga that doesn't rest on the shoulders of special effects. For me, watching a starship fighter soar through space isn't going to make my heart race as the music swells. Watching Padm�'s eyes fill with tears that slip down her porcelain cheek when she realizes that Anakin Skywalker is the man she truly, utterly, and desperately loves does. That is the stuff that can break your heart, make you mist up, make you care, even if you don't cry or whatever. It's why we make movies! For the magic! GL needs to go find the magic, because he let it get away! Run Georgie, find the magic! [img]smilies/spineyes.gif[/img]

OK that last part was a bit weird, but I'm kind of in a strange mood right now. [img]smilies/spinface.gif[/img]

And please, no more tailoring SW towards kids. A lot of the fans of Star Wars aren't kids. The Classic Trilogy wasn't tailored to them, and no kids minded. However, TPM was, and a lot of adults DID mind that...myself included. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In the new digital age we have now, one of the biggest problems with huge Hollywood blockbusters is that they get too bogged down by special effects that in the end are resorted to eye-candy that only wows us for a few seconds before we wait for the meatier stuff to occur. Guess what? It never occurs. Argh, just have to say that again. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for what Liz said about the actors, ITA! GL has got a hella group of fine talent there. Sam Jackson, Hayden Christensen, Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, etc. I have complete and total faith in all of these people. Considering Jackson's reputation, Hayden's excellent work in Life as a House, and Natalie Portman's great work in Anywhere But Here, Where the Heart Is, and Beautiful Girls, not to mention Ewan's work in Moulin Rouge and Trainspotting, I KNOW these actors can do it. They've put 100% in everything they've done. But I feel something's missing in these films. Maybe it's GL's direction. For example, Portman is a very warm, funny, solid actress. I've seen that in her films. But perhaps GL's direction is telling her to be otherwise in the script, thus she comes off as wooden on-screen. Or, I could very well be all wrong and she just isn't nailing the character. Whatever. Same goes with Christensen. He was so GREAT in LaaH. It was phenomenal. And there was a great scene in AotC when he just killed the Tusken Raiders and comes to tell Padm� about it. I loved that scene. I want to see that energy, that reactionary, intense, emotional feeling in all of his scenes. Even if it's not that heavy of a scene, he should look alive on camera. 'Cause c'mon he's *Anakin SKYWALKER*, he's the Chosen One. Also some of the lines that GL gave him during the Chase Scene...ick, I cringe.

And ITA about what TheChesireKitten said about Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship. No need to add onto that, because the point was nailed spang. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

OK, that's all. Wow, I'm a messy thinker. [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

Paul · 07-01-2003, 03:07 AM

I agree with a lot of the criticism... The prequels, while enjoyable, aren't a patch on the OT, IMO. They just don't really have the same feel and, as mentioned, the emphasis on CGI is too strong. A New Hope was first released in 1977, when CGI wasn't anything like it is today... Does that stop Star Wars from being enjoyed in 2003? Certainly not.

Why get rid of Puppet Yoda? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Okay, okay, I know the fight sequence with Dooku in AOTC would be virtually impossible with a puppet, but it still disappoints me. Don't even get me started on Jar Jar. Annoying doesn't even begin to describe it. No matter how well done computer characters are, you can still tell they're not real, and it just detracts from the storyline a bit.

I sound pretty negative, but I do enjoy both the films and have seen them both many times. I just think they could have been better, that's the real shame. I'm still looking forward to Episode 3; I'm certain it will be the best of the three and I can't wait for certain scenes/events to take place.

TheCheshireKitten · 07-01-2003, 12:27 PM

I want to see Episode 3 to see how he ties in the original with the prequels. I don't have any great expectations for it though, because Episodes 1 & 2 lowered them on their own. I think Episode 3 will most likely be the best movie out of the three, but that's not exactly much of a compliment- much as I would like it to be.

LittleMilkJug · 07-05-2003, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheCheshireKitten:
I want to see Episode 3 to see how he ties in the original with the prequels. I don't have any great expectations for it though, because Episodes 1 & 2 lowered them on their own. I think Episode 3 will most likely be the best movie out of the three, but that's not exactly much of a compliment- much as I would like it to be.

I await ep3 with much less enthusiasm than I did for ep1. But storywise it has just got to be the best of the prequels. I really hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Paul · 07-05-2003, 01:23 PM

Yeah, we might be pleasantly surprised... I don't think we'll really be disappointed at any rate, since we won't be hyping it up as much as Ep 1.

LittleMilkJug · 07-15-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul:
Yeah, we might be pleasantly surprised... I don't think we'll really be disappointed at any rate, since we won't be hyping it up as much as Ep 1.

I just hope Lucas has read at least some criticisism of the prequels (there is a lot of it about) and has taken some notes. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Darth Liz · 07-16-2003, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LittleMilkJug:
I just hope Lucas has read at least some criticisism of the prequels (there is a lot of it about) and has taken some notes. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

hmmmmm somehow I get the feeling that he has.

JanineW · 07-17-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LittleMilkJug:
Come on, I know you want to. Lets get this clear, I am writing this as an avid fan of Star Wars. Star Wars - Episode 4 - A New Hope, is still IMO the best film ever. Other films come and other films go - Some I have really loved ie Terminator, Alien Saga, The Mummy Films, LOTR fims and X-Men. But NONE have had the same impact on me or the film industry in general. Will I love LOTR or X-Men as I love the Original Trilogy in, lets say, 10 years time? I really dont know. This brings me to my expectations that I had for the prequels. I think overall I was let down. The Phantom Menance does get better with repeated viewings and Attack of the Clones was fantastic eye-candy. But, in both films, there was something lacking. 1999 and 2002 are a world away from 1977. Also Star Wars - Episode 4 came out as a 'stand alone film'. By the time APM and AOTC came out there had been hundreds of films inspired by Episode 4. I think George Lucas should have gone more 'Manga' instead of 'Flash Gordon'. And I think he should have let go of his tight hold of the Star Wars universe and let other people direct and even write his films. Nobody will ever take away his right to sit on the 'Star Wars throne' everybody knows he created this magnificent story. But I think even he knows that he has his limitations as a film maker..when it comes to direction and character developement not ideas and special FX.
I would really like to hear your thoughts.

Devon [img]smilies/flowers.gif[/img]

[ 05-06-2003: Message edited LittleMilkJug ]

Have you considered writing a constructive critique of the Original Trilogy? I'm sure that many of the complaints you have attributed to the Prequel Trilogy could be found in the OT. Most of the complaints people have about the PT, are basically the same flaws found in OT.

I also have a theory as to why so many dislike the PT:

I think many fans had expected the same kind of swashbucking fun/happy ending that were seen in the Original Trilogy. For them, the Prequel Trilogy is too dark and perhaps too formal (remember that the PT is set in a more formal period - age of the Old Republic) for many fans. They wanted a repeat of the OT and got something else - a tragedy in the making. Nor do they really care for the morally ambiguous tone of the story. People usually have difficulty accepting moral ambiguity. Out of all the movies from the OT, "The Empire Strikes Back" made less money than the other two. Why? It was darker, more complex and did not have a happy ending. Someone once stated that it had received less openly by the critics back in the early 80s. Now, it's considered the best SW movie. I cannot help but wonder how the Prequel Trilogy, especially AOTC will be received twenty years from now.

My favorite SW movie is "Empire Strikes Back". My second favorite is "Attack of the Clones". As much as I enjoyed "A New Hope", I found the characterization and plot a little too one-dimensional for my tastes.

Also, it is considered the "in thing" to bash SW, especially the prequels. I'm sure that many of you will deny this. But I see the signs.

[ 07-17-2003: Message edited JanineW ]