Coco_Cat

That's what gets me. Its the total lack of development. There is never any long lasting effect cused by the so-called game changing events. Nothing ever lasts more than one or eps - Michael's shooting is the same again. Just like Rogeilio's kidnapping and Mateo's, Jane somehow even managed to forget that Rafael's father was murdered! I'm not sure if knowing how to create tension is their problem, so much as what to do once it has been created. There is just so little follow through.

Their bigger problem is that they don't understand character development. They just decide that they want things to be a certain way and they try to change it over night and try to get around it by saying there has been a time jump or try selling some trope within cheesy flashbacks. The biggest problem I have with Jane and Michael (besides rather weak chemistry and the fact that Brett Dier looks as if he still hasn't started shaving!) is that they don't feel earned because most of their journey to being a couple happened before we meet Jane. We're not a part of their journey. They're trying to get around it by showing stuff in flashbacks but its just too bitty. And rather than informing part of the story in an organic way, it feels as though they are being used to justify certain descisions the writers have made. They need to watch This Is Us - that show understands how to use flashbacks to show how and why the characters are the way they are - and its only 4 eps in!

wanderer78

I can see that happening, Jane's distrust being justified. That's totally something the show would do.

And yes, the writing is so bad now. I don't how the show continues to garner good reviews.

I think just about any show uses flashbacks better right now.

My problem with J/M is that they're not interesting in the present, and they keep kind of getting retconned via flashbacks. And the ones from the premiere are genuinely disturbing and send a really bad message.

ChristinaL80

I second that! This Is Us has great character development and great use of flashbacks. I think JTV had that going the first season. Very little seemed contrived and I'm not just saying that because it was the J/R season.

wanderer78

I originally loved the flashbacks on JTV. But now..

I don't watch This is Us. But I can't help comparing JTV to Pitch (a flashback heavy show). Pitch does it so much better right now.

wanderer78

Dp

Lethally Floral

Ick. that sounds like Petra again. They established a love/hate thing going on with them last season and I could see her having issues if Raf dated Petra again with their fight over his "soul."

Both Pitch and This Is Us are created by the same people and use flashbacks. I love Pitch but wasn't enthralled with This Is Us but who knows. I may check it out again to see.

But JTV did use flashbacks well in their first seasons too so lets see how Pitch and This Is Us pull it off in their second (hopefully for Pitch) seasons. Honestly, I wouldn't mind Pitch dumping the flashbacks as I don't think they're as successful as they could be.

wanderer78

I think it's Petra too. But why would she want Mateo? She already has two babies of her own that she doesn't really care about.

I think Pitch needs to eventually cut down on the flashbacks. I actually think JTV could still do well with flashbacks. It might be b/c they've been so J/M heavy since the end of S1. And J/M is so flashback heavy.

venezia57

My 91 year old mother loved Season 1 and thought it was charming. She says she slogged through Season 2, but started losing interest. Now with Season 3, she's quit the show. She said that the first epi of Season 3 was "weird" and she's bored with the whole thing. She doesn't read spoilers or forums and isn't a shipper or fangirl. She is not influenced by my opinion. She is a normal, unbiased viewer. So if she's any indication, the ratings will tank.

For a long time, I held out hope--not just for J/R, but that this show would find its footing again. But once a show goes off track, it never gets back. And judging from next week spoilers, it's going to be about Jane "growing up" and Michael struggling with recovery and Xo and Alba's conflicts and snorrre. Jane has become the suckhole of the show. All the storylines/characters that extend out from her are just so weak. The only SL that has any life or energy is Anezka/Petra and Raf. I even think that if Michael had an SL independent of Jane--like he goes back to solving crimes or becomes pals with Raf-- that could be interesting. But as long as Jane is at the center, the show will continue to stagnate. Nothing against Gina, but a once complex and fun character has become like the Seven Dwarfs--Perky, Squeaky, Weepy, Whiney, Judgey, and Cutesy!

wanderer78

Yeah, I think JTV is gone. I agree with you Amy, that once a show has lost its way, it'not going to go back. The only show I can think of that recovered from a bad season/storyline was Friday Night Lights. Even if J/R get back together, the show has lost its magic. Hell, it's lost its adequacy.

Coco_Cat

Thinking about it again, comparing the flashbacks in JtV to those in This Is Us wasn't entirely fair as in This Is Us, they're not really flashbacks per-say, its the story of Jane's flashbacks in season one were flashbacks in a more traditional sense but, like in This Is Us, they served the audience in showing why Jane is the way she is and how she got to where she is. I didn't mind them at all in season 1 but they mostly just showed Jane as a small child. It felt as though it was about getting to know Jane and that is/ should be the whole point of flashbacks. Really, the more you get to know the characters, the less a show should be using flashbacks but if anything Jane is doing the opposite. In season 2, as I've said before, the flashbacks weren't serving as a way to get to know and understand a character but as a way to justify plot points that otherwise wouldn't have made any sense based on what we currently knew about the characters and events that we had seen previously. Frankly, that alone highlights how under-developed most of the story was in season 2.

This is very true. Lol. They went over the top with a lot of Jane's traits in season 2 but then they were far too gimmickey all round.

ChristinaL80

I agree, I started watching Pitch.

Lethally Floral

I think shows can recover but they have to realize that there's something wrong. Too many critics are still riding the season 1 high. I think season 3 we'll see that start to change.

wanderer78

I hope you're right. I'd love to see JTV recover.

Abut the flashbacks in S2, the last ones I felt were effective were the ones in the baptism episode. And I always like the Alba/Mateo Sr. ones.

Coco_Cat

Yeah, I liked that too. But thats a flashback being used the right way. It helps us to understand more about a family's past - it wasn't trying to justify anything which the flashbacks of Jane and Michael's relationship are.

I would love for Jane to be more like it was in season 1 but I don't see it happening any time soon. But I can't bare to watch the Jane and Michael show, even if the quality does improve. Similarly, even if they got Jane and Rafael back together, I wouldn't watch if its the same quality as now. Its just not good stroytelling.

wanderer78

IA with everything you said here. Like next week looks J/R heavy, but I have no desire to watch it b/c the writing is so bad.