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Old 07-17-2017, 01:20 AM
  #16
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I think everything felt a little bit rushed in this season.. maybe if there were more episodes some of those negative feelings would have been less

Of course Linds was the main reason in my eyes that made Justin go to NY.. first she tried to get him to leave on his own, and when that didn't work, she took Brian in the boat, knowing very well that he wouldn't want Justin to risk his carreer becuase of him. He always thought he wasn't worth it and Mel telling him too that Justin sacrifices his career because of him .. well it just made sense in Brians head that he had to do something..

I haven't thought about the bachelosr party very much, but you are right but Justin was there too, so maybe it was a party for both of them, but they left out Justins part of getting gifts? I guess that is something we won't get to know
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:42 AM
  #17
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Another question . Why do you think the writers would even have the marriage proposal and get all the fans hopes up and then go oh no, no wedding and Justin and Brian not even living in the same place? They had to know that the fans would not be happy with that. I know some were but most weren't.

I know Randy has said he thought it would be good for Justin to go and explore life and that's understandable but why a marriage proposal and then no wedding? Maybe they could've done it so that people knew they were still together in some way - some closure for people?
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:05 PM
  #18
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In my opinion writers-Cowlip did not go with the wedding because they needed/wanted to have Brian alone at the end, for 2 main reasons: 1. for them Brian was the symbol of the gay community and of gay people so they wanted him to be dancing alone in final scene, because if he would be with Justin he would be perceived mainly as Justins partner, not as this symbol- proud unapologetic gay man, and it would cheapen the message they wanted to convey 2. They wanted to keep diversity of gay relationships. Michael and Ben as married couple on one end of spectrum, and then Justin and Brian on the other end. Brian and Justin for Cowlip represented couple who does not care about heterosexual and their rules, who does not need marriage (Justin cared in beginning of s5 but by the end its him who says we dont need rings...). BUT at the same time writers believed in the strength of Brian and Justins love, they said themselves they are bonded forever, thats why they gave us proposal, ILY, thats why Brian keeps the rings etc. So everything that happened in the last episodes has to be explained from these two goals Cowlip had. They did not care so much about logic of the story or if characters were OOC etc. If Justin would not go to NYC, they would get rid of him in different way, if you understand what i mean, simply to have Brian alone at the end no matter what. They accomodated story so it served their goal, their message. The political message was their priority BUT they could not deny strength of BJ relationship so they gave us ILY, proposal because they wanted to show us depth of love between BJ. IF there would be no proposal, we would not see how much Brian transformed and that his love to Justin was everything to him. Thats why the end is so messy and heartbreaking because writers needed to accomodate these two somehow contradictory messages. And although their "political" message took priority, they did not betray BJ love because Brian keeps the rings and says its only time in their last scene which means that eventhough wedding did not take place, he is still in love with Justin and commited to him, so they can have future together. I Believe these are the real reasons why there was no wedding and Justin left. They tried to tell us Brian was not ready and Justin has to make career etc., but thats just pretext, that was not real reason imo, on human level even writers could not deny Brian changed, is not anymore Brian of season 1, they even confirmed that his last dance in Babylon does not mean he reverts to being club boy. And he could be even satisfied with Justin in monogamous relationship. But they could not give us typical happyend simply because Brian as symbol of certain lifestyle, certain attitude of queer identity was for them more important than Brian as human being. Although this explanation of the end gives me some sense, it does not help me much to reconciale with the 513 and I am crying like a baby anytime I see it and my heart breaks down feeling Brians pain.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:56 AM
  #19
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And although their "political" message took priority,

I agree that they had many political agendas but it's a little annoying that they had to put it into everything including their love story. They had so many political stories and so many things they covered through the 5 seasons - even into the last season where they give Brain syphilis. They just tried to cover so much I wonder if it was too much sometimes.


Brian changed, is not anymore Brian of season 1

I agree with this too and I think that is what annoys me about them not being together so much. He had changed and he was happy. You see him throughout the seasons do things for his friends and for Liberty Avenue and Babylon and even asking Justin to live with him (I love where he says and for the times you aren't here I wouldn't mind if you were - swoon ) is a big change and something he had never done before and I know he wants Justin to be happy and do his art but like I said before he could do it in Pittsburg. It just annoys me a bit .

I see it and my heart breaks down feeling Brians pain

I think that's the other thing - it is so sad to see Brian at the end sitting there by himself in his loft just missing Justin and then sitting in the loft working. It's like he had changed and was ok at home by himself and wasn't out at a different club picking up - it took Michael to take him back to Babylon to get him there. He looks so sad and lost at the end - even dancing by himself he looks not so happy.

There was 22 episodes in the first season and only 13 in the 5th - I wonder why? They could've made the story more rounded or clear maybe?
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:22 AM
  #20
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I dont know if its truth but i read somewhere that from s3 there were fewer episodes because since show became somewhat successful, actors demanded salary raise after s2. So that they could fit into the whole budget, later seasons had to be shorter. But i dont know this from any reliable source, it was mentionned by some fans.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:41 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Sia (View Post)
In my opinion writers-Cowlip did not go with the wedding because they needed/wanted to have Brian alone at the end, for 2 main reasons: 1. for them Brian was the symbol of the gay community and of gay people so they wanted him to be dancing alone in final scene, because if he would be with Justin he would be perceived mainly as Justins partner, not as this symbol- proud unapologetic gay man, and it would cheapen the message they wanted to convey 2. They wanted to keep diversity of gay relationships. Michael and Ben as married couple on one end of spectrum, and then Justin and Brian on the other end. Brian and Justin for Cowlip represented couple who does not care about heterosexual and their rules, who does not need marriage (Justin cared in beginning of s5 but by the end its him who says we dont need rings...). BUT at the same time writers believed in the strength of Brian and Justins love, they said themselves they are bonded forever, thats why they gave us proposal, ILY, thats why Brian keeps the rings etc. So everything that happened in the last episodes has to be explained from these two goals Cowlip had. They did not care so much about logic of the story or if characters were OOC etc. If Justin would not go to NYC, they would get rid of him in different way, if you understand what i mean, simply to have Brian alone at the end no matter what. They accomodated story so it served their goal, their message. The political message was their priority BUT they could not deny strength of BJ relationship so they gave us ILY, proposal because they wanted to show us depth of love between BJ. IF there would be no proposal, we would not see how much Brian transformed and that his love to Justin was everything to him. Thats why the end is so messy and heartbreaking because writers needed to accomodate these two somehow contradictory messages. And although their "political" message took priority, they did not betray BJ love because Brian keeps the rings and says its only time in their last scene which means that eventhough wedding did not take place, he is still in love with Justin and commited to him, so they can have future together. I Believe these are the real reasons why there was no wedding and Justin left. They tried to tell us Brian was not ready and Justin has to make career etc., but thats just pretext, that was not real reason imo, on human level even writers could not deny Brian changed, is not anymore Brian of season 1, they even confirmed that his last dance in Babylon does not mean he reverts to being club boy. And he could be even satisfied with Justin in monogamous relationship. But they could not give us typical happyend simply because Brian as symbol of certain lifestyle, certain attitude of queer identity was for them more important than Brian as human being. Although this explanation of the end gives me some sense, it does not help me much to reconciale with the 513 and I am crying like a baby anytime I see it and my heart breaks down feeling Brians pain.
Excellent analysis. I cannot compete with this, because I agree with every word. As much as we fans do not like it, the writers did all of this for a very profound and meaningful set of reasons that people are still getting the drift of. And you are one of the lucky few who've gotten the drift so clearly.


Sia:

Quote:
I dont know if its truth but i read somewhere that from s3 there were fewer episodes because since show became somewhat successful, actors demanded salary raise after s2. So that they could fit into the whole budget, later seasons had to be shorter. But i dont know this from any reliable source, it was mentionned by some fans.
I heard the same, but I'm not sure how accurate it that is, either. There could have been a number of reasons why they had to reduce the episodes. Maybe the network was in their ear about the cost of production.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:25 AM
  #22
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I think some of the problem is that many people wouldn't look at the ending and see that - they would just look at the surface of what happened and just see that they ended up apart and they were unhappy.

Another season 5 question - who was happy Ted ended up with Blake? Would anyone have rather seen them him with Emmett?
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:56 AM
  #23
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I think some of the problem is that many people wouldn't look at the ending and see that - they would just look at the surface of what happened and just see that they ended up apart and they were unhappy.

Another season 5 question - who was happy Ted ended up with Blake? Would anyone have rather seen them him with Emmett?
Present! They should have never parted. I know it had to be done so that each man could overcome his individual problems without ruining the other, but it was painful watching them get together only to split again... and then having to suffer through those dreadful storylines with Tad and that other guy who had the "fat" fetish.

I wish we saw more of their relationship, to be honest.
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:56 PM
  #24
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Present! They should have never parted. I know it had to be done so that each man could overcome his individual problems without ruining the other, but it was painful watching them get together only to split again... and then having to suffer through those dreadful storylines with Tad and that other guy who had the "fat" fetish.

I wish we saw more of their relationship, to be honest.
Emmett is my favourite character after Brian and Justin. He is so strong and so loyal and he stands up for his friends and family. I think he seemed happy with Ted too and even at the end I get the feeling that he wished that he and Ted could be together and he missed their romantic relationship.

They had a great relationship as friends and partners.
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:05 AM
  #25
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I would like to ask about scene in 507 when Ted is with Brian in his office, offers him emotional support and tells him: "....considering you lost love of your life and your best friend, your soulmate, the yin to your yang...." its after B and J breakup and after Brians fight with Michael. so I suppose Ted speaks both about Justin and Michael (which is also suggested at the end of this scene when Brians says that as a result of his childhood traumas, addictions etc. he lost TWO people who mean most to him). So in Teds speach its Michael who is his best friend, Justin of course is love of his life. BUT when he says soulmate and yin to your yang he refers to whom? To Justin or Michael? Because technically both best friend and lover can fall under those criteria. I am bit confused about this. Because he says it after best friend so logically it would refer to Michael. But yin to your yang symbolizes that the two complete each other and are perfect match, balance each other, which is not Michaels role in Brians life but Justins.
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:48 PM
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I would like to ask about scene in 507 when Ted is with Brian in his office, offers him emotional support and tells him: "....considering you lost love of your life and your best friend, your soulmate, the yin to your yang...." its after B and J breakup and after Brians fight with Michael. so I suppose Ted speaks both about Justin and Michael (which is also suggested at the end of this scene when Brians says that as a result of his childhood traumas, addictions etc. he lost TWO people who mean most to him). So in Teds speach its Michael who is his best friend, Justin of course is love of his life. BUT when he says soulmate and yin to your yang he refers to whom? To Justin or Michael? Because technically both best friend and lover can fall under those criteria. I am bit confused about this. Because he says it after best friend so logically it would refer to Michael. But yin to your yang symbolizes that the two complete each other and are perfect match, balance each other, which is not Michaels role in Brians life but Justins.
Very good question. He could have been interchangeably talking about both, but considering Ted mentioned the yin-to-his-yang, I definitely believe he was referring to Justin in that particular instance because he was at the time of this discussion the closest thing to Brian. Michael and Brian had definitely drifted apart by this time, though they were still friends... they weren't soul mates. However, I do believe Ted was talking about Michael, too, when he brought up the best friend part.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:22 AM
  #27
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I agree, thats make most sense, it was just a bit confusing how it was ordered in Teds speech.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:27 AM
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Totally Sometimes it takes a little bit more thought to interpret certain scenes.
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Old 07-23-2017, 04:03 PM
  #29
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Very good question. He could have been interchangeably talking about both, but considering Ted mentioned the yin-to-his-yang, I definitely believe he was referring to Justin in that particular instance because he was at the time of this discussion the closest thing to Brian. Michael and Brian had definitely drifted apart by this time, though they were still friends... they weren't soul mates. However, I do believe Ted was talking about Michael, too, when he brought up the best friend part.
I agree with you Denise I would say that he ment Justin as Brians Ying to his yang... I can't imagine Michael to be it..
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:01 AM
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Question - who thinks Mel was over the top and carried on a lot about the affair considering she had already had an affair?

Also, who thinks that Lindsay and Mel should've got back together? Does anyone think they should've stayed apart?
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