galela

i soo loved that scene too. i love teddy this season. i never thought this was gonna happen that i actually really, really, really love his scenes. i do. i don't need brian around to enjoy teddy scenes. that scene was so cute.

and ben - where is all that jealousy & bitterness coming from? it doesn't make any sense to me. him being jealous, ok, that's natural. but not getting over it & just be so openly bitter about it? drama for drama's sake. nothing new i guess

i looooooooove those shorts!! *teehee* brian scratching his butt again & i'm crazy about those shorts. he can wear anything & look sexy. those legs!!!

i don't know how many times i've seen this brian-justin-after-babylon-scene. it killed me the first time i saw it & it's definitely one of my top5ever scenes. poor justin. and poor michael. i totally loved the brian-michael-scene. i thought i was gonna get a little pissed at michael for telling brian that he & justin knew & for bustin justin actually. but i totally understand where his reaction is coming from. he obviously didn't plan on telling him. he just got overwhelmed by his feelings & his fear, basically. brian's reaction was so - brian. comforting him. and his reaction right after brian told him he knew. he totally didn't know what to do & how to react. and whoa - those eyes when he heard about justin knowing.

Lexie

How do I manage to forget the ONE Brian and Justin photo? My photo posting privileges have been revoked. Sorry about that, everyone. I'll let Jamie handle it from now on

~ Liz ~

*Gasp* Tiff! You've got balls. (Brian's?)

Well, my comments are probably anti-climactic now, but here they are anyway.

So the fandom divide gets even bigger. I feel for those people who are fans of both Justin and Michael, because really, I don't think they have any place to go anymore. The reactions to this episode around the web prove it. You either hate Michael and love Justin, or hate Justin and love Michael.

As for me, I haven't been a Michael fan since about midway through season one. I've tolerated him, I've accepted him as a vital part of the show, but he does nothing for me. Since 301, and his horrible comment about Justin, my tolerance has waned considerably. The writers seem determined to make Michael as simpering, selfish, and childish as they can and try to pass it off as endearing. He's good to his family, I'll give him that. He's loyal, but to an unhealthy degree. He cares, yes, but Michael doesn't think before he acts or speaks, he makes stupid decisions, and he doesn't know when he's in the wrong or even understand why. And he gets away with this behaviour. Nobody else on this show ever would.

Justin should not have gone to Michael for advice on how to handle his newfound knowledge of Brian's illness. He needed someone to talk to. Who better than one of Brian's best friends? How was he to know that he couldn't really trust Michael? He should've been able to. He also assumes, knowing the deep friendship between Brian and Michael, that Michael already knows. He assumes this because, contrary to popular opinion, he is not threatened by their friendship. If anything, it's the other way around. We know that Michael doesn't consider Justin (ie: excluding Justin from his visions of Rage's success; a comic that is just as much a part of Justin as it is himself - if not more. Look at all the work Justin must put into it, bad hand to boot) or Ben. When he's around Brian, and the two of them are alone, everyone else disappears. You can say that's romantic, but it's really disturbing. "Just you and me?" Get over it! You have a partner! You should be saying, "Just me and Ben!"

Brian's cancer is not about you losing him, Michael. It's about him. Don't cry on his shoulder, let him cry on yours. Be a true friend. Comfort him. Yes, he says he's worried for Ben and Hunter (who are healthy), yes he's still mourning Vic (but everyone is), but he should still have taken his own advice and let Brian confess his own secret when he's ready. I don't believe Michael was being deliberately malicious or that he's out to get Justin, but it's what I mentioned above. He doesn't think and this is where the problems begin.

Back to Justin, he should have known better than to trust Michael with anything because he's been betrayed by him before (ie: Michael telling Brian about Ethan). As in that situation, Michael's not to blame for the communication problems between Brian and Justin, but he is to blame for interfering. This "he couldn't help it" excuse isn't going to cut it anymore. He needs to stay out of their relationship and let them work things out themselves. If he really were Justin's friend, as we're constantly made to believe, he would respect Justin's position in Brian's life and butt out. It's none of your business. He didn't like it when Brian was meddling in his relationship with David (and to a lesser extent, Ben), so how does he justify doing the same to Brian?

Brian, in my opinion, wasn't angry at Justin when he threw him out. He was angry at himself. He was scared. He hates that, in his eyes, he's no longer perfect. He thinks that Justin will think him imperfect as well. He wasn't ready for Justin to know. If Brian truly wanted Justin gone, he would've done it long ago. He wouldn't be using his illness as an excuse. There's no doubt in my mind that he would have confessed to Justin - how could he keep something this monumental from his partner? It's impossible. But he was caught off guard by Michael and that is why he spun out of control. Neither Brian nor Justin were given the necessary time they needed to work things out. And they would have if they'd only been given a chance.

Bottom line: Michael was out of line. Again. Even if you disagree with everything else, no one can deny that. If you do, there's something wrong with your perception. I love Justin, but if I feel he's done wrong or needs a swift kick in that very fine ass of his, I'll admit it. I'd love to meet a Michael fan who doesn't constantly excuse his actions or put the blame on someone else.

It may seem like I'm being harsh on Michael and that Michael's getting a lot of criticism in general, but let's not forget that it's two-sided. There's a lot of incessant Justin bashing as well (some of it's even on this board). I don't hate Michael for hate's sake. I don't hate him just because he's Brian's friend or because he's a perceived "threat" to Justin's happiness (*scoff*). I hate the way he's written; I hate his behaviour. It's too bad a lot of viewers seem to be watching the show with tunnel vision. (Actually, that's quite like Michael himself - tunnel vision to Brian. And obviously no one else).

I'll be back with my thoughts on everyone else.

~ Liz ~

Those pictures are totally messing up my screen, but they're so pretty.

- Hunter needs a bigger bike.
- Well, I hope Deb gets buried with Vic. Get a lot of use out of that headstone.
- Who is the actor playing Sam? I know him from somewhere. It's driving me nuts.
- Damn. Lindsay's a freaking great artist.
- "Testy," "Had a ball." Someone needs to count the 'testicular cancer' references in this ep.
- Aww, Emmett's a good son.
- "That I'm a lesbian." Hear that? She's a lesbian! So take her word for it.
- Lindsay's inspired by that yucky ass? Whatever gets you there, I guess.
- **Loves Ben.** "12-year-old boys." I can make a joke here, but I won't.
- Such a gorgeous B/J scene. Feel the love, people, feel the love.
- Aww, Hunter. *hugs*
- Hee. Ted. There are a lot of Mikey = Child references in this ep. Intentional?
- Justin wants to tell Brian he knows! God. If only he hadn't listened to Michael. But, I've been over that already, so I'll shut up.
- God help me, I might actually like Mel for once.
- Ha. Mikey got puked on.
- Say what now? Last I checked, Brian has nothing to do with Rage other than being its inspiration. It'll be Justin's feet in the cement.
- Gah. Horvath. Don't ever go away again. Loved the scene between he and Deb. So emotional.
- End scene? He'll be back.

BabylonPrincess

Dude. I hate replying with just this, but...

big fat effing word to everything you said, Liz. Seriously. Worded so much nicer than I could ever do.

~ Liz ~

Hee.



And, please. Someone from the B/M thread come and talk to us.

Vintage

You made some great points Liz. And I agree with just about everything you said. I always look forward to your reviews, seriously.

I agree...Hunter needs a bigger bike.

I couldn't agree with you more.

LuvDJ

Frankly I don't hate Justin, most days I tolerate him and other days I like him. Some days I dislike him but I dont care one way or the other. I do feel for those who call themselves a fan of both characters, it must be hard.

Michael is loving, and kind and has an 'old' soul. He can be niave at times but it's one of the reasons I love him. He does have the tendency of acting before he speaks but I saw no such action tonight.

None whatsoever.

Nah, he shouldn't have gone to Michael for advice at all. After all Michael's been plotting deep, deep, deep down to breakup B/J...rme. Considering his accusatory tone maybe he should have kept his mouth shut. And here I thought Brian's illness was about Him not B/J and their trust issues? This is how Brian and Michael relate to each other. They have this intimacy that far surpasses anything I've ever seen. Here we have two old friends spending time together. Should Michael say Ben name ten times while he's spending time with Brian to show us he's happy with Ben? On that account, I don't see Brian reciting Justin's name like poetry either. B/M have known each other for almost two decades! They've always been there for each other thru thick and thin; before there was a Justin or Ben. How dare Michael and Brian act like, well, Brian and Michael.

This is not about excluding their significant others, its' about them. What they have is separate from their love lives. It doesn't in anyway take away from what they both share with Ben and Justin.

B/M have never been ordinary, and Justin and Ben know this about them. Anyone who comes into their lives will have to accept this friendship as a package deal.

That's not right or wrong, that's simply the way it is.

Yes, Brian's cancer is about him. But his illness also affects his family and friends. He will be leaving them behind if he dies. Michael is being bashed for *gasp*, being human. For having the naturalistic reaction that ANYBODY in his shoes, including Justin might have had. He's being bashed for not following the text book example on how to act upon finding out your best friend has cancer. There is no one way to act when you're overcome with grief, your emotions has a tendency of having a mind of it's own. I am very sure if Michael wouldn't have told Brian, Justin would have broken down at some point. One of them would have eventually spilled the beans. Michael has been and will continue to be a true friend to Brian. He had no intention of telling Brian that he knew. They were talking about their past and yes, it simply happened. A future without Brian, Brian not being here anymore. Michael fears and insecurities and most importantly, what Brian means to him crept up. He doesn't want to lose Brian, what is wrong with that?

Because he broke down and got emotional? Because he cried on Brian's shoulders and not the other way around. Because he acted...human?

No this is not about Michael but it's not about precious JUSTIN either. He didn't break some oath by succumbing to the pain of possibly losing his best friend to cancer. He wasn't out to get Justin, that was the last thing on his mind. His head was telling him be strong and for a while he was. Until his heart literally broke when the severity of the situation hit him.

I think this was one of the most beautiful and poignant moments of the ep because anyone could see themselves in that position. It was real and raw emotion. I don't understand why it has to be turned into something ugly. Because Michael didn't get the memo on how to act.

Again, see above this is NOT about Justin or B/J. This was about Michael and Brian's relationship and what they mean to each other. Michael has stayed out of B/J's relationship. Brian dying from cancer, whether Justin initially learned of it or not, doesn't only affect him. It affects MICHAEL and Brian loved ones. Of course that must have slipped Justin's mind because he had the audacity to say that Michael doesn't love Brian. When that is the biggest lie like ever. Brian and Michael love each other that will never change regardless of whom they're with. I frankly don't understand HOW on earth Michael was meddling in B/J relationship. And I dont' even see the comparison with David, sorry. Michael's best friend has been diagnosed with cancer, Brian was just jealous of David and was being, well Brian. The two situations couldn't be more different if I tried.

Well I'm Luv DJ, nice to meet ya. Though it seems like from your posts, Michael can't do nothing right sadly. How dare he cry, how dare he show that he cares about Brian. How dare he not mention Ben when he's spending time with his best friend. How dare he and the list goes on and on and on. When my favs do wrong, I will say it. I make no excuses for them. And I think my preception was pretty dead on regarding that ep. Thanks for questioning it though. Because apparently there is *one* way of viewing QAF, silly me.

Again I dont' bash Justin because Michael is being bashed. Most days, I ignore Justin to be honest. This is not tit for tat. If Justin, Brian, Emmett, Ted, Debbie etc do something that deserves my criticisms or praise it will be on their own merits. Not because their so called rival is taking one on the chin also. Again you seem to know us oh so well. First our preception is out of whack and now we have tunnel vision because we don't view the show the same way you do.

Interesting.

Pardon me if I don't feel like coming out to play too often. Why bother when you seem to have us BMers pegged? You can just generalize anyone or everyone that feels differently then you and none would be the wiser.

Chow.

galela

i'm not a shipper. i'm not a fan of michael's. i'm a huge fan of brian and justin as single characters & i enjoy their moments together. esp the s4 moments more than ever. still not a shipper. and i do feel offended with what you said. like you said - non-shippers don't have a place to go to any more.

i don't see why michael was "out of line". he didn't go there & plan to tell brian. it just came over him. and i totally understand how he got so overwhelmed by his feelings & his fears basically. yes, the others also still miss vic, still - vic was HIS uncle, part of HIS family. he's extremely vulnerable & has this fight with ben who keeps telling him he can't understand this whole hiv-issue & what vic's death really means. so he turns to the one person he thought will always be there & who he just shares this deep bond with. i never wanna see brian & michael hookin up, but i do love their friendship. brian wouldn't have survived without michael & justin - as important as he is now - won't ever be able to replace michael. and michael will never be able to replace justin. they're both equally important parts of brian's life & brian needs of both of them more than they need him.
i hated michael in early s3 & mostly throughout s3, not to mention the first two seasons where he really annoyed me more than once. but i don't see what's so horrible about he did. he didn't do it on purpose, it just came over him.

just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean there's anything wrong with their perception.

Lexie

Maybe you wouldn't get pegged and generalized IF you came out of the B/M thread and shared your opinions. It's kind of hard to figure out who's thinking what, when people are shoo-holed up in their threads and never come down to discuss.

I know much has been said about Michael and why he told Brian he knew about the cancer. Nobody is denying he is human or that he has emotions. People are just upset because he explicitly told Justin NOT to tell Brian that they knew; that if he wanted them to know, he would tell them himself. I can understand getting overwhelmed, crying, etc - but it's just ridiculous that he would do that, and then NOT tell Justin that he'd spilled the beans. That's just setting Justin up - maybe not intentionally, but that's what it is.

Michael really has gotten away with a lot of stuff - he may be naive, and have an "old soul", but he's still a 30-something adult who should be held accountable for his actions. I highly doubt it'll happen, but he really does owe Justin an apology.

~ Liz ~

Yay! I've been saying stupid stuff for weeks trying to provoke some discussion. Glad to see someone finally took the bait. Thank you!

Same for me with Michael. Yes, he's not my favourite character, but I do acknowledge when there are moments with him I do like.

Yes, he's loving and kind. But I'm not seeing the 'old' soul bit. What does that even mean? I see him more naive and 'young' than anything else. And, like I said, I don't find that quality endearing. Just annoying. My perogative.

I didn't hear it as accusatory. He was a bit panicked, worried, so he went to Brian's best friend for help. If we're going to take intonations of the actor's voices into account, you can say a lot about everyone. Brian's illness is, ultimately, about him. I never said it was about B/J. But it's not about B/M either. Yes, it concerns Justin and Michael (and everyone else), but it's not happening to them. It's happening to Brian.

Of course not. I have no problem with B/M's friendship. Never have. I get it. I just have a problem with Michael's constant "you and me and no one else" mentality he gets sometimes. If we're supposed to believe that Michael's 'over' Brian, saying things like that is confusing. It makes it seem like he's excluding everything and everyone else. God knows, if my boyfriend was hanging all over his best friend whispering "just you and me, always have, always will" into his ear, I'd be a little worried.

Brian's not dying. He's sick, but not near death.

Ditto. So is Justin. For being human enough to not make the right decision and talk to Brian about what he heard immediately.

He did. Right beforehand, he told Michael "I'm going to tell him." And, again, Michael told him not to. He was adament about it. Which is why I don't understand, grief or not, just how Michael could have spilled the beans. And why admit that Justin's the one that told him? It seemed malicious, but like I said, I don't believe it was. Just more of that naivite. I'm not blaming Michael for anything. About how he reacted to Brian's illness. He's not a very strong character (yeah yeah, sometimes), so I wouldn't have expected him to 'be brave' for Brian.

I never said it was. And, yeah, Justin is precious, isn't he? *luvs Justin*

I guess so. I thought Deb and Horvath's was far more emotional and poignant though.

What is? Their scene together? Obviously. Michael's blurting out the news after repeatedly telling Justin not to? Hell yeah, that effects Justin and B/J. Just look at Brian's reaction to it.

Sloppy writing. Justin would have to be extremely thick not to know that. And he does know it. I took it as "you don't love him like I do, as his lover."

I concentrated on one aspect of the episode, one aspect of Michael's character. When I think he does something right, I'll be the first to say it. Truthfully, after I see the episode, I go to the various threads on the board and check out the reactions. Most of what I said was pure incredulity about some of the comments on the B/M thread. So I was annoyed and babbling. Annoyance you probably what you felt after reading my "babbling," so you know what it's like.

Heh. We've been accused of the same thing. Tit for tat and all that. The only perception problem I meant was about Michael's 'foot-in-mouth' disease. Whether you agree it was in this ep or not, you've gotta admit he's got it. I'm not stupid enough to believe that there's one way to watch the show and that's it. That wouldn't be very interesting, would it? And we wouldn't be able to discuss things like this.

No thanks, not hungry. But Ciao.

P.S. Please do come and continue to discuss the eps here. That's what it's here for. It seems, sometimes, that the B/Mer's are segregating themselves in that one thread. It'd be nice if different opinions were expressed all over the board. It's pretty boring otherwise.

~ Liz ~

Maybe I should watch the episode again, but I don't see this. I'm not doubting that he's still mourning Vic, but we weren't really shown it in the episode. Emmett and Horvath were helping Deb more than anyone, and Michael had plenty else to deal with - Ben/Hunter, Rage, and Brian.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. I understand the friendship between Michael and Brian. I know that Michael's important to Brian. I don't care. I don't have a problem with it. I know that Michael didn't "mean" to spill the beans. He didn't do it to mess with Justin. It "just happened."

But I still maintain that Michael was "out of line," intentionally or not.

ETA: Something else that just came to me. I wonder how much time had passed between Mikey's confession and Justin returning to the loft with the movies? At the very least, Michael should have called Justin and said, "*****! I accidentally let it slip that we know. Tread carefully." I mean, at least Justin wouldn't have been walking into the situation blind. Give the boy a heads up, Mikey.

Vintage

Good point.

LuvDJ

Excuse me, but this is one of the most out there explanations that I have ever heard. I didn't knew there was a rule on this board that everyone must post in every thread on the QAF board. Not every BJ fan post in the discussion thread.

I don't post on the general thread because *I* don't want to, its is MY right! Just like it's everyone else right to post wherever they please. I'm not particulary interested in playing in the playground, and pointing fingers back and forth. When I feel like debating, I will, hence me responding to Liz's post. I'm not watching the show more then watching it these days so mostly I ahve nothing to talk about.

To say that folks wouldn't be pegged if they came out and posted every once in a while is a bit close minded to other opnions. If I want to pitch a tent in the BM thread and stay there, it's my choice. I wouldnt generalized anyone because they're not posting in the discussion thread. I would know that everyone doesn't think or act alike.

I thought that was a well known fact but I guess not.

I like debating and seeing different views like the next person. but it's also my right to not participate if I don't want to. And many used to but have had enough, can't say I blame them. If you want to encourage more discussions this is not the way to go about doing it.

LuvDJ

Liz this is not a conscious decision. Heck in the beginning I used to post here a lot. Till I lost interest in QAF and now I'm back here and there.

For the most part I ignore B/J, so I don't feel like talking about every move they make because, frankly I don't. The same goes for Ben and Michael, love Michael but Ben bores me. And his actions this season has just about sent me thru the roof that I really dont' care to see his mug AT ALL. When I feel interested in whatever they do, then I will post. But I can't exactly be posting about this show day in and day out when I don't watch all of it.

And perhaps more folks would be more open to dicussions if we didn't make things personal. Many things I've wanted to say something and thought, why bother?

Because I feel like we'll be going around in circles and it's like hitting a brick wall. Sometimes I feel like talking about the things I care about and that is Brian and Michael and not dwelling on what I dislike or am indifferent to. I like Ted and Blake and went into that thread and posted my thoughts. It's not to say I've been posting up a storm lately and avoiding the discussing thread, because I haven't.

But sometimes you just don't feel like posting, don't see the problem in that.