soulmatejunkee

soulmatejunkee

Here we go
I added you to the shippers list

imp32

thanks, although I'm not really a shipper

anyway, I liked so much what you've said about Mikey's little dream about Brian
I'm dying to know what do you think was the reason Brian didn't make it come true?

imp32

As for the title, that was one of my favorite scenes between them so I let myself copy the whole dialogue:

M: I don't think I can do it.
B: What?
M: Be responsible for another life.
B: Did I ask you to?
M: Not you, a-hole, the kid.
B: Job's done. From here on out, the lezzie's do all the work. All you have to do is show up for birthday parties and the occasional walk in the park.
M: I don't intend to be a drop-in dad like you. I want to be involved, a real father... If I can just figure out how.
B: You're gonna be a great dad.
M: What makes you so sure?
B: You raised me, didn't you? Look how I turned out.

(there was also a bit earlier:
M: This sure isn't how I was planning to spend my evening.
B: Yeah? How'd you think you'd be spending it?
M: Going with David to dinner at Lindsay and Melanie's.
B: Aww. Dinner parties! Couples! Christ, Mikey. Is this the life I raised you to live? Whatever happened to your sense of fun and your thirst for adventure?
M: I'm here with you, aren't I?)

(by the way, considering his acting toward Hunter and Jenny Rebecca, Michael has learnt much from his mistakes with his first kid)

soulmatejunkee

He definitely learned

His little dream? To get laid? Why Brian didn't make it come true?
Well, first of all, to me it was always pretty obvious that - as much as Brian loved and needed Michael - he never was IN love with him. And he loved Michael way too much to just give him what he wants (or thought he wants), because he knew that in the end, it would only cause even more damage, because Michael would just fall in love with the idea of Brian even more. Sex (or even a handjob) could've ruined everything and I think Brian knew that. He knew that he wasn't the right guy to make Michael happy, to give him what he really wants and needs and that he would disappoint Michael sooner or later and that it would kill what they have.

Manu9

Thanks for the new thread. I love the banner, Steffi

Ewa double posting is against rules. If you need to add something and nobody has posted after you, you should please edit your post instead of posting another

I think Steffi's explanation of why Brian never slept with Michael is fairly accurate. I think Brian was never in love with Michael but even if we consider he was, since that's B/M shippers believe, I think he was still too scared things wouldn't work between them and then that would have put at risk their friendship, which is something Brian cannot do without. Michael is too important to him, to vital to Brian's life and happiness, to risk losing him over sex or even a relationship, because those could not work.

imp32

Okey, let's say that's right. Then, how do you think, did Michael know that that was the reason, have any clue, for all those (how many? 17?) years?

And as for Brian being in love... you think about it for a while - you say - no. I think about it for a while - I say - sure, and everything else was an illusion. When I think about it a bit longer than I'm supposed to, I ask: who or what is Brian Kinney?
I know it's obvious, but somehow it's always missing when it comes to conversations like this, and even though it practically denies their point, I guess it shouldn't be completely thrown out of sight.

You can make statements about living people based even on their smallest gestures, the way they speak, the way they look at each other, because they're organic creatures and theoretically everything has a an independent reason. But a tv show character is something completely synthetic, it consists from actor's work, his talent, his charisma, his impact on his character. It consists from writers' work, the way they see him, the way they want him to be. And it consists from its role, "its mission" that it's supposed to accomplish (Ben is a good example here, as his relationship with Michael was essential for portraying an HIV positive/negative couple, gay marriage and adopting a child, and surely all of those roles had some impact on that character). And so on and so on.

What would be a base to answering the question was Brian in love or wasn't he? The work of the actor? Before you tell anything about "chemistry" (which is debatable which one was better), let me remind you that a good actor is able to portray a character being in love with a rock. And you would agree Gale is a very good actor, wouldn't you. His impact... I think you could make some fun out of it, not on the highest level though. Roles and missions - perhaps. I've already said that Brian and Justin storyline was important for portraying something that had never been portrayed before on American TV, and it's not about being in love, it's not even about two men being in love. The writers - my favorite part. They're supposed to tell you what to think about their character. The problem is that sometimes they don't remember what they've already told, or they spontaneously decided to drop some of their ideas, or they make false impressions because of the mess they've created, sometimes they have no clue how to tell you something and make "totally out of character" moments.

To make a good fiction you should keep your characters real. I think they didn't. And, if you really think about it (long enough or maybe too long), the only good answer to the question who was Brian in love with is - what's the difference, after all.

(sorry, Manu, about doubling, I'll remember not to)

Manu9

I think a character is the mix of everything you mentioned: the writersmm the acting, the scenes and storylines he/she is part of on the show. And ultimately, I think what tells you if a character, in this case Brian, loves Justin or loves Michael, it's in his words, which is what the writers wrote and so decided to portray and it's the way the actor delivered those words. Ultimately, Brian told Justin he loved him and proposed to him. While he did tell Michael he loved him too and we can debate on if he meant "in love" or a friendly love, there's no debating that Bian never slept with Michael and never asked him to marry him or even to live with him. I think it's totally ok to look at things differently and I have a big respect for the shippers of B/M, but the truth is that the writers chose to write Brian with Justin romantically. It's Justin Brian proposed too, it's Justin he slept with, lived with. It's Justin that was his first thought the night of the bombing. I'm totally fine with you not buying it, but when all is said and done, to me it seems pretty clear that the writers decided that Brian was in love with Justin.



I think Michael knew and I go further and say that I think Michael had the same reasons for not sleeping with Brian when Brian offered it in S2 and even before, in S1, when his father died. It's a bridge neither wants to cross because in my opinion they both know they are not the right person for each other and it's not real romantic love between them.



I gotta disagree. I think the writers didn't do everything perfectly but overall kept the characters very real and honest and also consistant. To me, it was always clear that Brian was in love with Justin and would end up with him. I never doubted it, not for one moment. So I guess ultimately, as usual, it's all a matter of how each of us perceive things.

imp32

Manu, I always thought Brian's proposal to Justin was more influenced by Michael than Justin himself. As if Brian wanted to admit that Michael was right with the lifestyle he chose and tried to do the same (he bought a house in the countryside as well, didn't he), only that in his case things didn't work out that way, maybe because it was not Brian's lifestyle (at least not before Palm Springs, ha).
That's how I see it, because that proposal didn't make much sense even to Gale himself (as far as I remember). Whatever, it's always up to a viewer what he/she thinks about it and how long he/she thinks about it at all.
If the writers really made it clear that Brian was in love with Justin and would end up with him, for me they were as convincing as beaming ladies in ads that tell you some new wash powder would change your life. Sorry. If I changed my mind, I'd go to the 160th.

soulmatejunkee

This I completely agree.

But I know what it's like to not "buy" a couple resp. love story. I had this "problem" with another show. Thank god it was none of my fave couples, so that it didn't bother me that much. But I'm not completely Anti that couple. In the end, if I like it or not, I have to accept that the writers wrote them as happy couple,etc. For me they'll always be just a farce, a fake.

Pure.Magic

TFTNT Steffi. I love the banner, thanks for adding it.

Manu, it's good to be back here. I love this thread, you know I do.

Hey Ewa, it's nice to meet you too. Can I tell how amazing it is to have you here? I've been going through your posts and nodding furiously and yelling YES EXACTLY THANK YOU at my computer.

About what you guys were talking about, at the start of this thread, about why Brian didn't have sex with Michael - I think the very fact that Brian didn't sleep with him was proof enough for me that he was in love with him. Like Manu pointed out, Michael meant too much to him. I think Brian's unwillingness to do so, also stemmed from his self-loathing tendencies, I don't think he ever thought he'd be good enough for Mikey.

I gotta agree with this. It's also why I couldn't take that scene seriously, (well it's generally a good idea to not take anything in S5 seriously ), it was IMO, a knee-jerk reaction to Michael getting hurt at the bombing, (like every OOC thing Brian did in S5 was mostly because of Michael drifting away from him, settling into domesticity.) And that's why, even though the writers chose Brian/Justin, they couldn't convince me that it wasn't Brian and Michael, two old queens, just the two of them, in Palm Springs, in the end.



Kinda like this, but a lot older.

Manu9

I love those set of pictures, like I love those Brian used in the loft for Michael's birthday party. Which, between, was one of those times in which Brian proved how much he cared about Michael, even though he proved it in his own screwed up way

I'm totally ok with you guys not buying B/J. Just as Steffi said, I experienced something like that with other shows too. Fortunately, in those other shows I wasn't really invested in any couple, but I know what it feels to see the writers pick a couple you don't believe in

About the proposal, I don't think it was a reaction to Michael's getting hurt, but mostly to the possibility of Justin getting hurt and to possibly lose him. But it's another one of those things we'll never agree on

soulmatejunkee

This is kinda cool to read, you know, this completely different POV of all things Of course I can't agree, but whatever, it's really interesting and it's not even that it doesn't make sense, which shows again that the writers were really good.

Pure.Magic

It is quite amazing how we get different things out of the same thing.

I love those pictures too, Manu. I love to think of their teenage years, think of a Brian not totally cynical and (outwardly) invulnerable, think of a Mikey, timid and pathetic, and yet, the only thing keeping Brian from self-destructing.

imp32

Veronica, it makes two of us, I was afraid you just stepped by once and I was gonna be all alone here (I mean, Manu and Steffi are so nice and accepting, yet still...). I know, we BMers are soulmates, aren't we?

Brian not being good enough for Mikey was something suggested already in the first season (- Ted or Emmett: show him (the doc) you're too good for him. That he doesn't deserve you. - Brian: And who does Michael deserve?).

As for the season 5 - yeah, that was pathetic. It hurts when I recall someone quoting Hal that if there was a season 5, he believed they would confront the whole Brian/Michael aspect (I read that here, by the way, the forum's ancient history). Sure they confronted, Michael told Brian he jerked off thinking about him after their first night in Babylon (which, I suppose, translates to: I've been in love with you since I remember?) and Brian answered something that translates to "me too".

V, and what do you think about: "just because we've been friends our whole lives doesn't mean we have to stay friends" (both Michael and Brian said something like that).
I was like: sure, high time to start to think about Palm Springs.

(Those "old" photos were fabulous by the way, I wouldn't say they looked like 15 years old, but they definitely didn't resemble themselves).