Giotto

So.. I see both of your points here

where do I start..

Chris ~ the moment Brian told Justin if he'd rather would cuddle.. in my eyes that was a precisly set move of him. He knew Justin never would go to NY if he doesn't shove him that direction. I mean he hadn't even told Brian about the article in the magazine.. Brian was sure that the moment they married, Justin wouldn't leave to get his carreer, which btw I really don't know he couldn't start at home NY being not that far away.. but that's aomething else.. So with telling him the moment he was diving down the blanket if he would rather cuddle.. he pushed him over the famous Kinney cliff to make him see that this is what he didn't want.. we know how good Brian was to make people believe to be something that he wasn't.. and he managed to make Justin believe he had changed himself soo much for that... and we all know that Brian always thought he wasn't worth to be the reason to stay or not get the career you deserve..

but what I ablsoutly love is the Quote you wrote

OMG how beautiful is that

hat quote is perfect for them. I do believe Justin came back to him, and I'm sure they didn't lose contact.

As you mentioned, Brian was ready for the final step.. not giving back the rings and the look in Brians eyes when they kissed goodbye before their final lovemaking told us all. he was finally at a point in his life where he was able to let himself feel love..

As the Babylon reopening.. I see it the same way from the point of few of the makers. this end was perfect. it was a round up finish, which only would have been more perfect if it only would have been the four of them.. what I don't believe is that it still was their phantasy that Babylon reopened. It was their phantasy at the beginning, but it blended over to the real thing.. and there everybody had his partner with them.. just Brian was left alone.. as I said before.. a simple mentioning would have been enough.. wouldn't we all want to know if Justin got his success? not only if they are still together, but to see if he made it in NY? I'm already over that he schould have appeared shortly.. ( as in that little fanvid wjere he entered Babylon to surprise? Brian, caus nothing could have made him miss that event) a little mentioning that he couldn't make it because of an artshow he had to admit would have been nice

so you see it's not that I don't like the ending the way it was.. it is just not completly satisfying for me..

seeing it as a "dreamsequence" maybe even from Mikeys point of few, would probably explain Justins missing, but even then a mentioning would have been great. we all know that Michaels and Justins relationship improved from season 1 to the end..

Steffi ~ You are absolutly right. Brian acted out of fear and realised that he had to grab the opportunity, cause it can be over in just a minute without letting people know how he feels. it was an eyeopener for him, but that also makes his 180 turn absolutly in character.. we all know that Brian Kinney is someone who can't do it in a subtile way.. He couldn't just say Michael that he has to find his way woth the Doc in season 1.. no he had to throw a huge party and make it very painfull for his best friend to let him go (maybe a bit for himslef to make it easier) and so he just overreacted here too.. it was his way to cope with his own feelings.. yes or no.. no maybe in between.. he only was able to go from black to white.. even if the reason he did it, was because of being in shock and having fear to lose the love of his life..

o I still make sense here?

I'm Brian Kinney, FFS!

I totally see your point about Brian's attempt to push Justin away with the "cuddle" thing, etc. I hadn't fully considered that before, and I think you're absolutely right. However...I think it's still obvious from Brian talking to a couple of the other characters that he wasn't totally down with the whole marriage concept. I think he still would've done it and been somewhat happy about it if the NY thing didn't happen, but I think a part of him would've grown to resent himself for making that choice, and it would've trickled down to Justin.

I also agree with Steffi that Brian's reacting a bit out of shock after the Babylon bombing. But I think it was shock combined with that stirring up some buried realizations in Brian that what he really wanted was to be with Justin and that he loved him, etc.

That is the perfect quote, isn't it? I think it's totally true, too. I try to live by it in my own life. I feel like Brian totally embodied confidence in that being true, himself, when he said the whole, "It's only time" thing...

Gosh, how they both have to drink before they can say their goodbyes and Brian's getting choked up -does- kill me...

I agree that the Babylon scene was only a fantasy at the beginning, but once they've changed outfits and the other characters appear, it's real. Thank you for clarifying that you're not fully unhappy with the ending, just a bit unsatisfied. I get that. And I can see how it would've been nice for there to have been some mention of if Justin had started finding success. Also agreed - he probably could've tried to start his career in Pittsburgh. Personally I still kind of liked that Justin wasn't there, in a way... I think it was important for both of those characters to feel the separation. Plus, who knows how soon Babylon got reopened? Ted had said in an earlier episode that they could rebuild within a few weeks. Maybe after Brian finished his dance he strolled into the back room and Justin found him in there.

And I *also* agree that Brian was very much a "go big or go home" character, and his proposing and buying Justin a house was in line with his character because of this. Like, "Oh ****, Justin could've died, I could've lost him, I need to make sure that this can't happen ever again. I'll marry him." Like you said, he's very much a black or white thinker.

Giotto

Never thought about it as a drink to get the coruage to say good bye, but thinking about it you are right they needed something to do that final step..

but what make me all teary eyed is Brians expression when he took Justin in the arms and kissed him good by at that moment.. he looked so lost and heartbroken, trying to keep tears from falling and that last love making scene is so so full of emotion. it was clear that we didn't see them jus f here that was true lovemaking and nothing else

daggerrose

Wow reading all this made me emotional lol

Okay so--

I can totally see that about the cuddle thing. Brian doing what he had to to snap Justin out of it and make him realize that he should follow his dreams, etc. That they shouldn't sacrifice everything just to be together in the way they think they should be.

I do believe they were the real deal, real true love. And I do believe they'd always find their way back to each other.

As for the ending--I like all of that of it coming full circle but also in a way that the characters were changed. I do think Brian was different, he grew and evolved but he also didn't lose himself completely. I also do get why the writers did it this way (with Justin going off) and it does make sense. Except it makes my Britin heart sad lol. And I do wish Justin popped up at the end, at Babylon.

Hi everyone~ I want to take part in his finale discussion too (you guys are doing a great job analyzing). I’m going to watch the finale again first....

I'm Brian Kinney, FFS!

Glad you joined in!

Totally agree. Brian's evolved but still has some of that oldschool Brian Kinney in him. I don't see that ever completely going away. I can understand it making your Britin heart sad, for sure. It aches mine a bit, too, but not as much as it makes me happy that they've proven they're the real deal.

Ultimately, I think a couple who was less secure in their love/feelings for each other or respect for themselves would've ignored their dreams/needs and stayed together (in the same physical place, I mean) or gotten married right then. That kind of anxious attachment. Britin didn't have that. They're too good for that.

And Daggi, yes, that whole last lovemaking scene was definitely nothing but love...making. The kiss that starts it off is super heartbreaking, but the ending shot with Brian kinda collapsing on top of Justin and then it fades from them spooning to Brian alone on the bed...ahhhh. Beautifully done, cinematically, though.

soulmatejunkee

So, so...

Did he propose to Justin because he thought it was what Justin wanted or because it was what he wanted?

Because if he tried to push Justin away or to wake him up - as you say - with the cuddle thing, because NY was an opportunity for Justin - then who wanted that wedding more??

daggerrose

I agree with you completely!!

And yes, their lovemaking scene was perfect and like you said, that ending

Giotto

I think a bit of both, but more because it was what Justin wanted. He wanted to make him happy. He wasn't completly against it anymore, that's why he kept the rings, but Brian wouldn't have needed the vows.. but he would have done it with no regrets.. and knowing that Justin wouldn't leave , he pulled the strings with the "cuddle-line" ..

and Chris, I feel the same way.. it was the mos beautiful scene I've ever seen too, cinematographic just perfect

I'm Brian Kinney, FFS!

Hmmm, so to add to this, do we think that Justin is sort of merging with Brian's perspective on not needing marriage, in the end? Cause of Justin's comment, "We don't need rings and vows..." He wanted marriage so bad, enough to leave Brian, but then he gets engaged and suddenly "We don't need rings and vows..." Maybe the failed engagement brought them back to the same page? Seems to be a bit of a theme with Justin, "Oh, Brian's not giving me what I want so I'll just leave..." Then he figures out Brian already was giving him what he wanted, or Brian makes a grand gesture, and suddenly Justin changes his mind.

I also think the proposal was more to make Justin happy. But it was also for Brian, because he wouldn't have seen himself ever feeling that way towards anyone else.

daggerrose

All very true!! I think Justin still wanted marriage and always did but I think at that point he realized that 1) He didn't need it to make their love real because it was. 2) That it wasn't the right thing for them to do right then.

Giotto

I think you are absolutly right here.. it always was Justins way to deal with problems.. he ran away.. that was like a red thread through the whole show.. and Brian wanted him to stay so he gave in with proposing to him.. but when Brian changed so much that he prefered cuddling befor sex, I think that was were he realised that he didn't want to go through with it. and Brian knew exactl what buttons to push to open Justins eyes.. after that they both were back at the same page again. Finding the rings not returned again made Justin realise how serious Brian took it to make him happy, but also made him realise that he already had what he wanted most. Brians love with or without rings. as younsaid.He realised Brian had given him already his biggest wish and he held the proof for that in his hands.. he wanted to asure Brian that he is not running away this time because he didn't get what he wanted with telling him they don't need vows

I'm Brian Kinney, FFS!

Agree with both of you. Their love didn't need to be "proven" in a material/ceremonial way. It also wasn't the right timing.

I'm just hearing Brian's voice echo in my head, "That is so like you! You don't hear what you want so you leave." So true. Justin's still very young, though, and in the end that age gap -did- get to them, a bit, with Justin still needing to explore a bit more. Brian was pretty genius in getting Justin to see that marriage wasn't really what they needed - that they'd had it all along (yes Justin, he'll prove this to you one more time...).

Pretty realistic for someone younger and more into the romance idea of a relationship to be so insistent on hearing "I love you" and needing affirmations that they can see. I noticed this in myself when I was younger - wanted to hear it and was big into the idea of marriage. Things have changed since I've grown - I realized that sometimes people who say, "I love you" the most are the ones who actually don't show it at all. Brian was all about showing it.

Though they didn't get married, I feel very satisfied that Brian got to the point of doing whatever it took to keep Justin happy/around, and Justin realized afterall that it was just Brian that he wanted/needed. That itself is super romantic.

daggerrose

Great points, they make complete and total sense. Ultimately I think Justin grew up and came to certain realizations, like you said.

SojournHeart11

Chris, you're right about their age gap. They were in two totally different places in life, and I think that ultimately contributed to their parting ways for a little. Of course, things have a way of working themselves out, so they somehow found their way back into one another's arms + life.

Giotto

The position in life truly was there something we easily forget