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Old 08-02-2018, 11:02 AM
  #61
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he was an expert in covering it up
That is true
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:51 PM
  #62
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he was an expert in covering it up
Not to get ahead of the episode watch, but one of the scenes I’m looking forward to discussing Saturday..... in 109 Brian has this big speech to Justin about how he should forget his dad (bc he’s an *******, etc) and tells Justin that he has already forgotten his own dad. Justin says “ I could never do that” and Brian says “Then you’ll always be hurt”. Then more dad issues are brought up for Brian when he’s asked to give up his parental rights... and agrees to it only to have Justin confront him about it later causing him to have second thoughts. Later when we see Brian go see his dad, give him money, listen to him say he should never have been a family man, etc, you can see some cracks in the Brian Kinney facade and then finally we get a peek inside the HUGE walls Brian has built up as he shows up to Michael’s drunk, lays down in his bed, reaches for Michael’s hand for comfort and *cries*. Even though his parents were cold and unloving and be acts like he doesn’t care, it still hurts him. He is human after all..
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:17 PM
  #63
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Brian is a painfully tragic character. It's upsetting that so many characters fail to see why he behaves the way he does. That's one reason I love his relationship with Debbie so much - she always calls him on it.

Brian's transformation throughout the series is personally satisfying for me, having known people like him in real life who grew up with similar issues and act similar to him as a result. His portrayal was very well done and accurate. But Brian DOES evolve and you get to see more and more of his heart as the show progresses, and by the end of it I can't see how any viewer couldn't have fallen for him. Anyhoo, it's super satisfying to me on a personal level, because I've rooted for that transformation for people I knew/loved in real life, but it never happened...:/
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:05 PM
  #64
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Hello and welcome, I'm BK FFS! We're glad to have you. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on Brian's progress throughout the series.

I agree, it was so great getting to see Brian evolve from the guy in the pilot, to the guy he became at the show's end. All of these characters experienced some level of personal growth, and NONE of them were exactly the same as when the show was first starting out. Which is why I do not get what people mean when they call it OOC simply because Brian wanted to stop living so much in fear, and wanted to finally show how much he loved Justin. It was so powerful that Brian was finally letting that well-repressed romantic side to his character be known to the world. Sure, some of the behavior he showed went against what he'd said or believed in, but there is always that battle between logic and emotion. This time, his emotions won out. It's like his heart and soul were singing.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:29 PM
  #65
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Hello and welcome, I'm BK FFS! We're glad to have you. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on Brian's progress throughout the series.

I agree, it was so great getting to see Brian evolve from the guy in the pilot, to the guy he became at the show's end. All of these characters experienced some level of personal growth, and NONE of them were exactly the same as when the show was first starting out. Which is why I do not get what people mean when they call it OOC simply because Brian wanted to stop living so much in fear, and wanted to finally show how much he loved Justin. It was so powerful that Brian was finally letting that well-repressed romantic side to his character be known to the world. Sure, some of the behavior he showed went against what he'd said or believed in, but there is always that battle between logic and emotion. This time, his emotions won out. It's like his heart and soul were singing.
Thanks so much for the warm welcome. I'm excited to be here!

That's true, all the characters grew and evolved from the beginning. I feel like Brian evolved the most though, or maybe just that HIS evolution was the most meaningful, because like you said, he allowed his emotions to win out, finally. (I "awwww'd" at the "it's like his heart and soul were singing" - sooo true!)

Just watched the episode with the Babylon bombing and I'm still sniffling...ha, but definitely directly applies to what we're discussing here. I also disagree that any of Brian's changes were OOC. Even the "untameable beast" can be penetrated by love, and love changes you. I feel like people who argue with Brian's actions at the end of the series are ignoring the glimpses of him falling in love that are obvious in season 2, with him helping Justin after the bombing. (I mean c'mon, homeboy can act like he doesn't care as much as he wants, but we saw evidence EARLY ON that it wasn't true.)

indeed... It proves how strong Brian actually becomes, to let himself appear as he used to call "weak" - showing love, etc. So heartwarming.
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:19 AM
  #66
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Well, tbh I think it was ooc.

Not that he fell in love or that he was finally willing to openly say or show it, no, that's what I'd call character developement. But by the end it was like he was playing a role of a guy he thought Justin wants him to be, so that he won't lose him - that's pretty much what he admits when they're in bed ("I'm just trying to make you happy").

The ILY wasn't enough anymore to make Justin coming back, so he tried to give him everything he thought Justin wants to have. I mean, come on ... the house... seriously. Way too much.

Still - I wish they would've given us a middle-way by the end and not the ILY and the porposal and the house and the wedding planning and the next break up within 3 episodes.
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:05 AM
  #67
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Hello I'm BK FFS!!

I agree with you in that Brian really did evolve. And I also get where you're coming from, Denise, with it being OCC. I wouldn't necessarily say OCC. I mean, yes he was just trying to be someone Justin wanted and trying to do everything to make him happy. Which, obviously isn't the healthy way to go about things. BUT the fact that he wanted to try, was willing to do anything to make Justin happy, is a sign of him evolving. Season 1 Brian would never.
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Old 08-03-2018, 03:52 PM
  #68
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Hello to you, daggerrose!

Hmm, I still think it's within his character to have done all of that. I mean, he already paid for Justin's school, took him in, helped rehabilitate him, etc. Those seemed like the next steps, and while he may have been a little guilty of the 'trying to make Justin happy' thing, that's a pretty common experience of many people in love. And exactly, daggerrose, season 1 Brian never ever would've done that. He would've scoffed and rolled his eyes.

I actually loved that Brian bought that house... and when he said, "It's for my prince", OMG, I cry every time. I think it's beautiful. And for Brian to have said "I love you" to Justin was fine, I think, because it was so obvious by that point, anyway.

I'm still not under the impression that they flat out broke up, after having watched the series creators say that it wasn't their intention to have had those characters break up. (It was in a reunion panel or something? Don't remember the exact name.) But they said they were assuming Brian would go visit Justin in NY, or vice-versa, cause the plane ride was less than an hour.

I'm not sure if there's an ending I would've preferred. The romantic in me would like to see Brian and Justin move into that house and be happy, but I also felt like Justin fell in love with Brian *because* he wasn't the marrying type and all that, and I think the two characters explain that nicely when they decide not to get married. So, IDK, I might be one of the few who didn't hate the actual ending? -shrug-
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:06 PM
  #69
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Steffi I respect that. At times, it did seem like the writers were laying it on thick in terms of Brian's newfound romantic nature. It was definitely a 180 away from how he was just episodes prior to that. He wasn't open to the idea of relationships and domesticity, which he was so vocal about. So, I could understand the OOC arugment after all. I just don't think it's impossible that someone can change their mind.


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Hello to you, daggerrose!

Hmm, I still think it's within his character to have done all of that. I mean, he already paid for Justin's school, took him in, helped rehabilitate him, etc. Those seemed like the next steps, and while he may have been a little guilty of the 'trying to make Justin happy' thing, that's a pretty common experience of many people in love. And exactly, daggerrose, season 1 Brian never ever would've done that. He would've scoffed and rolled his eyes.

I actually loved that Brian bought that house... and when he said, "It's for my prince", OMG, I cry every time. I think it's beautiful. And for Brian to have said "I love you" to Justin was fine, I think, because it was so obvious by that point, anyway.

I'm still not under the impression that they flat out broke up, after having watched the series creators say that it wasn't their intention to have had those characters break up. (It was in a reunion panel or something? Don't remember the exact name.) But they said they were assuming Brian would go visit Justin in NY, or vice-versa, cause the plane ride was less than an hour.


I'm not sure if there's an ending I would've preferred. The romantic in me would like to see Brian and Justin move into that house and be happy, but I also felt like Justin fell in love with Brian *because* he wasn't the marrying type and all that, and I think the two characters explain that nicely when they decide not to get married. So, IDK, I might be one of the few who didn't hate the actual ending? -shrug-
That W. Virginia estate move was so romantic ( quite the investment, too). It's no wonder Justin was so shocked. All this time, Justin wanted for Brian to act like his Prince Charming, and here he was becoming it. It's just bit much to take in. Justin was overwhelmed and quite incredulous to all these stops Brian was pulling out for him, but I'm sure that true romantic inside of him was screaming.


I'll never get over how freaking amazing that "I love you" was. The way he said it, too... so breathy and emotional. I'm a sucker for a emotionalism, and that had so much feeling in it.


And yes, I completely agree with you! I never believed for a moment they broke up, even though I was upset they spent the series finale apart. But not ONCE did either of them say this is GOODBYE, no. Brian said, "Whether we see each other next week, next month, never again..." which to me is like an IF, he was speaking on a theoretical basis. Nothing was definite, he was just ruminating the the possibility that Justin would be a way for some time. For all we know, Brian could have taken a trip to NY just like a month later... who knows? I just don't believe it was ever a final goodbye. All they just exchanged words, held on to the rings, and made passionate love for the next few scenes. They never once said goodbye.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:42 PM
  #70
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I just don't think it's impossible that someone can change their mind.


That W. Virginia estate move was so romantic ( quite the investment, too). It's no wonder Justin was so shocked. All this time, Justin wanted for Brian to act like his Prince Charming, and here he was becoming it. It's just bit much to take in. Justin was overwhelmed and quite incredulous to all these stops Brian was pulling out for him, but I'm sure that true romantic inside of him was screaming.


I'll never get over how freaking amazing that "I love you" was. The way he said it, too... so breathy and emotional. I'm a sucker for a emotionalism, and that had so much feeling in it.


And yes, I completely agree with you! I never believed for a moment they broke up, even though I was upset they spent the series finale apart. But not ONCE did either of them say this is GOODBYE, no. Brian said, "Whether we see each other next week, next month, never again..." which to me is like an IF, he was speaking on a theoretical basis. Nothing was definite, he was just ruminating the the possibility that Justin would be a way for some time. For all we know, Brian could have taken a trip to NY just like a month later... who knows? I just don't believe it was ever a final goodbye. All they just exchanged words, held on to the rings, and made passionate love for the next few scenes. They never once said goodbye.
Yes! I can see other people's arguments about Brian's later actions being OOC but I personally disagree and believe it's possible people can change their minds - especially after doing something so powerful and life-changing as embracing love. Brian finally let his heart be torn open. It could've hit him like a flood just like the estate and the proposal felt like an overwhelming flood to Justin.

And YES - Gale's delivery of the first "I love you" especially MELTED my heart. I can't watch it with dry eyes...just can't. Beautiful emotion there. Like Brian's dam finally burst. I can't watch that episode/scene without rewinding (at least once) to see that part again. It's soooo good! There has never been a better ILY on TV, IMO. This one is by far the most meaningful, because of the build-up. Even though Justin knew that Brian had been showing him love for a while, for him to say it was monumental. I also liked how Brian looked into Justin's eyes to confirm what he'd just said, with a second ILY. Bonus round!

Yes, totally. They didn't say goodbye. Who knows how long it was before their first visit, or even text message? Or perhaps their first time sexting? I just read a great fan review of the series finale in which they said that Brian's line about "It's only time" is perhaps the most misunderstood line of the entire series...and I have to admit on my first watch-through, I misunderstood, too. I was so happy when I saw the writers confirm that they stayed together. Now I'm almost to the end of the series again and I've got that in mind, so I don't think the ending will destroy me emotionally, this time.
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Old 08-04-2018, 02:26 AM
  #71
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it's not the speech that makes the end unsatisfying for me.. what me bothered most, was that Justin didn't come to the reopening of Babylon.. not even wasn't mentioned..

if ne short appearence a single asking from one of the gang and maybe Brian answering,that he couldn't make it because of an artshow he is in (which would give us a happy feeling that Justin gets his success in NY)would have made it perfect
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Old 08-04-2018, 02:17 PM
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The end wasn't happy for me.
I didn't want them to break up so I wrote a fanfiction to get my happy ending
But I think the show didn't clearly say that they're still a couple.
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Old 08-05-2018, 01:49 PM
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they left it quite open, but with Justins absence they pushed it a bit in a direction..
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:16 PM
  #74
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So I just watched the finale again (completing my second watch-through of the entire series), and I have now seen it once on Netflix and once on DVD. I just had to share this while it's fresh...

-deep breath- I actually...loved the finale, this time. (*gets ready to hide from backlash*) Wow. I was watching the last two episodes with a pile of tissues on my lap, prepared to bawl my eyes out like last time (and yeah, I totally had several tear-jerking moments), but I finished the last episode with a huge smile on my face, instead of tears. I had these warm fuzzy feelings. I was satisfied. I know a lot of people don't agree (and that's fine!), but I'm happy it was that way for me.

Some people have said they wish there was a little more reassurance from Brian/Justin that they'd see each other again. I felt satisfied with what happened. I mean, the discussion about how Brian didn't return the rings...that was enough for me. Justin reassures Brian that they'll see each other all the time, and Brian says, "You don't know that," etc., which is true...they don't know.

...but, I'm reminded of this great quote:
"If you love something, set it free...if it comes back, it was always yours. If it doesn't, it never was."

...and c'mon, we know Brian/Justin have the real deal. Real love. That's exactly why Brian's letting him go. Brian's never known a love like this, never even imagined he could. Was totally opposed to the idea of it even existing, in fact. Then Justin happened. He's forever changed. And look at all Brian's done for Justin. He'll never know another love like Brian, either.

They might separate for a while. Maybe even years. But they'll be back. And I don't just say that from my fangirl hopes and dreams. I say that with confidence from the last interactions between the characters, and their history.

The first time I watched the finale, I was so pissed off at Linds for repeatedly stating that Justin needed to leave to go to NY. I felt like she was breaking them up. This time, I only felt a minor annoyance at her for bringing it up so much, but ultimately, I felt like it needed to be done, because Justin wouldn't do it himself. (And who knows, maybe Justin would actually fail in NY. Not that I'd want that, but it could happen. He might also just not like it there. He could run into a similar situation as he did in Hollywood. Who knows. But he had to find out.) I loved Justin's argument about how Brian was moving further away from the man he'd fallen in love with. I totally agreed. They were losing themselves in each other, and it wouldn't have lasted that way. But only because they *both* needed more time.

I *love* the last scene at Babylon. I understand the theories that it's just Brian/Mikey's fantasy when it comes back to life, but I believe Brian really did get it reopened. And I actually (don't kill me!) liked that Justin wasn't there. Not because I WANT Brian/Justin to be apart, but because it was reminiscent of the beginning. Everything's come full circle. That was the whole point, to me. At a distant glance, it's like, "Oh yeah, look, Brian's just back to being the same person," but he's not. Not by a longshot. I like Mikey's speach about, "I realized that some things aren't meant to change." Yes, Brian SHOULDN'T *change* who he is, and I was over the moon to see the reconciliation of him and Mikey, and Mikey's realization that Babylon is still very much a part of HIM, too, and his kind of giving Brian support at still wanting to be a "club boy," at least in part. This ties in with Brian's last scene at Kinnetik where he says, "It's still all about sex." That part of him hadn't died. He was just trying to deny it because he felt like he should. But there's so much evidence building up that Brian's not actually happy about the upcoming wedding. Like the irritated/flat way he says, "Wouldn't you rather cuddle?" That's not Brian Kinney. Justin called him on it right away. But Brian's forever *evolved* as a person, having known true love. His heart and soul have depths to them he'd never have known otherwise. But by the end he can still go back to dancing by himself, and be OK. (and ultimately, a person has to be OK being with themselves if they can ever make it in a love relationship, in "real life".) It would've been terrible if we just saw him crying in a corner or drinking/drugging himself into a stupor without Justin. No way. Brian Kinney lives on. I loved that Mikey pushes him to dance when Brian's first trying to walk away saying, "I'm too..." and Mikey says, "OLD?!" As much time as I spent being mad at Mikey during their fight in the last season, he really redeemed himself in the finale.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on. I just really think that this episode showed so much love, like, REAL love. The lesbians move away, but there's a lengthy goodbye about how they'll all be in touch and see each other on holidays and visit and blah blah blah. No one can just up and leave, because they're a family. They'll always be family. And Brian and Justin will always have their love. "It's only time." Brian blew my mind with that. Not even the hopeless romantic in me wanted the ending to be any different, this time. Brian/Justin can have what they both want from each other, it just isn't quite time yet.

Also, what a difference watching this on DVD makes. The song "Proud" made the tone completely different from the "watered-down version" (as Scott Lowell referred to the song on Netflix ), so maybe that also helped me love it way more. I also hadn't seen that little bonus clip all the way at the end of the credits, with all the friends dancing together. I dunno, guys. I just loved it, this time. If anyone actually read this, that's awesome.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:54 AM
  #75
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Steffi I respect that. At times, it did seem like the writers were laying it on thick in terms of Brian's newfound romantic nature. It was definitely a 180 away from how he was just episodes prior to that. He wasn't open to the idea of relationships and domesticity, which he was so vocal about. So, I could understand the OOC arugment after all. I just don't think it's impossible that someone can change their mind.
Yeah I can see that too - I just don't see it happen within like... what? 2 minutes? And I also think it was for the wrong reasons. If the explosion wouldn't have happened he wouldn't have changed anything.

Still, there's no doubt that he loved Justin and wanted to be with him and that Justin easily would have been enough, no other guys needed. All good and cool. I can totally see him coming to this, no matter what, sooner or later.

With what happened at Babylon Brian was shocked, he was scared and he was alone. The friendship with Michael was broken, the relationship with Justin was broken and then WHAM! And for me that was the reason for the 180 turn around (which is for me the house somewhere at nowhere and the hardcore prince-stuff). I absolutely think that Brian can be romantic - in his own way. But this was not Brian Kinney for me. That was just a guy under shock who tried to fix what was still there.

I didn't like the balance.
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