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Old 11-12-2017, 02:55 PM
  #31
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I always was impressed how good Brian turned out. We know that Jack was an awful father and rolemodel to him, and Brian was scared most to become the same way. He tried in every way not to turn into him..

He never planned to fall in love, and I guess he didn'T even notice it before Debbie said it to him, and he couldn't deny it anymore..
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Old 11-12-2017, 03:37 PM
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I always was impressed how good Brian turned out. We know that Jack was an awful father and rolemodel to him, and Brian was scared most to become the same way. He tried in every way not to turn into him..
The fact that he was even self aware enough about NOT wanting to be Jack is amazing. After all the abuse patterns he experienced he could have easily followed in those footsteps without even realizing it.

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He never planned to fall in love, and I guess he didn'T even notice it before Debbie said it to him, and he couldn't deny it anymore..
Again, I respectfully disagree. I think (JMO) he was aware of something DEEP by the end of 102. As we get further along in season one the evidence piles up that he's fully aware that he loves Justin.

116 - Justin: "You so care about me. You love me soooooooo much." Brian doesn't deny it.

During the dance he was awarely head over heels admitting it was also the best night of HIS life. That night in the hospital he cried from guilt, failure that he couldn't protect Justin but also that his LOVE was just hit by a baseball bat and would perhaps die.

By 201 he was full-on in love. He wore the scarf, he was at the hospital every night keeping vigil and knew every detail of Justin's progress. Outside the hospital he was an animal. And, every time somebody said the name "Justin" he physically cringed.

201 and 202 were about horrid tragedy and PTSD but these two episodes were also an intense love song from Brian to Justin. Brian tells Jennifer, "I care about him." MEANING, I LOVE HIM. When he walks away with devastation on his face the lyrics play, "I died today. But, I'm still breathing."

202 - Justin: "You love me madly, passionately, deeply." Again, Brian doesn't deny it.

At the end of 202 they made soft, gentle, delicate LOVE. Brian was as vulnerable as Justin was. He opened himself up to Justin in that moment because of how deeply in love he was.

In the beginning of 206 he's giddy with love. He was fully aware of his feelings. The conflict of being the stud of Lib Ave and this love was triggered by zucchini man's comments. So ensued the f---ing on the couch.

KEY!!! BEFORE Debbie's conversation with him at Woody's occurred he spoke the most heteronormative sentence that ever came out of his mouth the entire series...(I'm paraphrasing) Are you still upset about the zucchini man? He didn't mean anything. I don't even remember it...or him.

Brian was acting like a husband who cheated on his wife. WHY? Because he was making concessions for his behavior to keep his LOVE, Justin, appeased. Also, he did it to plain and simple KEEP Justin. SINCE WHEN WOULD BRIAN APOLOGIZE FOR TRICKING? But, he did, and while on his knees, no less.

When Debbie told Brian to admit his love he huffed a yes BECAUSE he had been aware of it for a loooooong time. If Brian WASN'T aware he would've looked shocked and insulted. He would've scoffed, ended the conversation, abruptly left, then would've taken a long time out for an intense think about it.

Brian's deliberate. He doesn't do much spontaneously (unless it involves Justin - he CANNOT control his impulses regarding anything involving Justin). He definitely wouldn't have given Debbie an immediate answer to the most important question EVER asked of Brian if that answer wasn't already consciously all consuming.

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Old 11-13-2017, 08:55 AM
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The fact that he was even self aware enough about NOT wanting to be Jack is amazing. After all the abuse patterns he experienced he could have easily followed in those footsteps without even realizing it.



Again, I respectfully disagree. I think (JMO) he was aware of something DEEP by the end of 102. As we get further along in season one the evidence piles up that he's fully aware that he loves Justin.

116 - Justin: "You so care about me. You love me soooooooo much." Brian doesn't deny it.
You are right, he didn't deny it there either, but I still don't think he realiesed that this feeling and need to care about Justin really was love that he felt

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During the dance he was awarely head over heels admitting it was also the best night of HIS life. That night in the hospital he cried from guilt, failure that he couldn't protect Justin but also that his LOVE was just hit by a baseball bat and would perhaps die.

By 201 he was full-on in love. He wore the scarf, he was at the hospital every night keeping vigil and knew every detail of Justin's progress. Outside the hospital he was an animal. And, every time somebody said the name "Justin" he physically cringed.

201 and 202 were about horrid tragedy and PTSD but these two episodes were also an intense love song from Brian to Justin. Brian tells Jennifer, "I care about him." MEANING, I LOVE HIM. When he walks away with devastation on his face the lyrics play, "I died today. But, I'm still breathing."

202 - Justin: "You love me madly, passionately, deeply." Again, Brian doesn't deny it.

At the end of 202 they made soft, gentle, delicate LOVE. Brian was as vulnerable as Justin was. He opened himself up to Justin in that moment because of how deeply in love he was.

In the beginning of 206 he's giddy with love. He was fully aware of his feelings. The conflict of being the stud of Lib Ave and this love was triggered by zucchini man's comments. So ensued the f---ing on the couch.
Reading all those arguments, I have to admit that you are right.. at the prom dance he was aware of his feelings to Justin... and he got scared over his own feelings after the bashing.. he noticed that this feeling is so powerful that it could hurt him more then everything before.. that's why he tried to keep Justin at distance.. but as soon as he let him back in his life he couldn't resist anymore...

sorry I forgot that all that happended before the conversation with Debbie..

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KEY!!! BEFORE Debbie's conversation with him at Woody's occurred he spoke the most heteronormative sentence that ever came out of his mouth the entire series...(I'm paraphrasing) Are you still upset about the zucchini man? He didn't mean anything. I don't even remember it...or him.

Brian was acting like a husband who cheated on his wife. WHY? Because he was making concessions for his behavior to keep his LOVE, Justin, appeased. Also, he did it to plain and simple KEEP Justin. SINCE WHEN WOULD BRIAN APOLOGIZE FOR TRICKING? But, he did, and while on his knees, no less.

When Debbie told Brian to admit his love he huffed a yes BECAUSE he had been aware of it for a loooooong time. If Brian WASN'T aware he would've looked shocked and insulted. He would've scoffed, ended the conversation, abruptly left, then would've taken a long time out for an intense think about it.

Brian's deliberate. He doesn't do much spontaneously (unless it involves Justin - he CANNOT control his impulses regarding anything involving Justin). He definitely wouldn't have given Debbie an immediate answer to the most important question EVER asked of Brian if that answer wasn't already consciously all consuming.
He probably didn't even know how he could explain it to her .. he didn't trust her enough cause even she made it clear to hoim tha tshe saw him as the ahole he wanted everybody to believe he was..
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Old 11-13-2017, 03:02 PM
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You are right, he didn't deny it there either, but I still don't think he realiesed that this feeling and need to care about Justin really was love that he felt
Ahhhh...but he told Justin, F--- you or F--- off or something like that after he'd endured the teasing for a moment. Brian's defensive walls come up when somebody gets too close to the truth. If Brian DIDN'T feel love for Justin he wouldn't have cared what Justin was sing-songing about. But, boy, did that hit Brian Kinney's nerve.

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Reading all those arguments, I have to admit that you are right.. at the prom dance he was aware of his feelings to Justin... and he got scared over his own feelings after the bashing..
I don't think he was afraid of his own feelings after the bashing. I think he was completely consumed by them, all of them.

The trauma, the guilt, the devotion, the love, the grief, the dedication, the feral need to protect Justin in the hospital b/c he failed to protect him from the bashing. His "friends" thought he'd removed himself from the situation. He removed himself from THEM. He was ALL ABOUT JUSTIN. And, he didn't care who knew it, saw it, understood it, or not. He was myopic.

In 203 Debbie tells Michael if Michael came home for Brian he made a big mistake. Brian had his own life. And, that life was Justin.

From 201 - 203 it was INTENSELY Justin, and only Justin.

From 204 - 212 he still soooooo loved Justin but as Justin began to heal a sense of normalcy and balance returned to B/J opening the doors for more drama to occur.

(Sex games were played, their rules were broken, Justin dropped out of school, Brian was outed to his Mom, etc)

213 and 214 Brian went back to protection mode with Justin. He was in agony watching Justin dance and go through the ugly necessities with Sap to get up on that bar. Brian loved Justin so much and wanted him to feel like a man that he rolled over for Justin at the end of 214.

215 - he was so in love that jealousy took over. He lost control - mostly b/c he doesn't have control regarding Justin. AND, THEN, HE APOLOGIZED HUMBLY FOR THAT JEALOUSY. He opened himself up to Justin and bared his jealous soul.

216 - The aliens abducted Brian AND Justin and left pod!Brian and pod!Justin in their places. So, I can no longer vouch for Brian's love or Justin's knowledge of that love (which Justin full well KNEW until he was abducted by aliens in 216) for the rest of the season.

I don't think he was afraid of his own feelings in 206. He was so consumed by his love for Justin that he kind of forgot he had a reputation to uphold. Zucchini man punched him in the face and gutt with that reminder.

That conflict was huge. Brian succumbed. BUT...it also led Brian to go find Justin and agree to all the rules Justin laid out. Brian's love for Justin was way stronger than his need to prove he was STILL the stud of Liberty Avenue.

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he noticed that this feeling is so powerful that it could hurt him more then everything before.. that's why he tried to keep Justin at distance.. but as soon as he let him back in his life he couldn't resist anymore...
When did Brian keep Justin at a distance in the first half of season 2?

And, Brian knew by the end of 102 that he was doomed. His immediate love for Justin from the moment they met was futile and he was going to get destroyed. And, ITA. He couldn't resist Justin. Not from the start. When he claimed Justin in 103 he sealed his fate. They were forever bound from that moment on. Brian knew devastating heart-break and loss were in his future.

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sorry I forgot that all that happended before the conversation with Debbie..
OMIGOSH. Don't apologize! We're just stating our opinions here. I LOVE these discussions. It keeps B/J alive and it peels back some of their many layers.

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He probably didn't even know how he could explain it to her .. he didn't trust her enough cause even she made it clear to hoim tha tshe saw him as the ahole he wanted everybody to believe he was..
Debbie always thinks and says the worst about Brian. It's disgraceful. She even contradicts herself and makes no sense. One minute she's saying Brian loves Justin and the next she's saying that Brian never did. Ooooooooo. These writers.

I don't think it was b/c he didn't trust Debbie. Unfortunately, Brian's taste in friends is appalling and he thinks of Deb as his second Mom, though he SHOULDN'T trust her.

He just CANNOT verbalize I LOVE YOU to or about Justin. It's too deadly to him. He's so vulnerable all the time about Justin. Saying those words is the death knell for Brian.

It was BECAUSE he trusted her that he was able to give her the affirmative "huff."

He would've denied to anybody else, except maybe Justin. I often wonder what would have happened if Justin asked Brian directly, "do you love me?"

Brian would either go silent like he did when Justin asked why he was living with Brian, abruptly walked out of the vicinity, softly admitted, "yes" or nodded or something, OR gone silent but let his face answer the question. I DON'T think he would have denied it. Brian doesn't lie. He just avoids.

I'm a genius, aren't I? Even a broken clock's right twice a day!! I just laid out almost every possibility with the exception of throwing Justin out. One of them has to be right. It's like I threw spaghetti against a barn. LOL

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Old 11-14-2017, 07:28 AM
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I don't think he was afraid of his own feelings after the bashing. I think he was completely consumed by them, all of them.
No he wasn't afraid, but they scared him.. yes he was consumed by them, that's what made it so scary for him.. he didn't really know how to cope with them and he wasn't in controll of them anymore..

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The trauma, the guilt, the devotion, the love, the grief, the dedication, the feral need to protect Justin in the hospital b/c he failed to protect him from the bashing. His "friends" thought he'd removed himself from the situation. He removed himself from THEM. He was ALL ABOUT JUSTIN. And, he didn't care who knew it, saw it, understood it, or not. He was myopic.
I don't think he didn't care who saw it.. because would have been that the reason, he would have visited Justin during the day were the other could see heim.. he made them believe he didn't care, and they didn't look close enough to look right through him..


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When did Brian keep Justin at a distance in the first half of season 2?
not visiting him in hospital and when he came out of it.. Justin had to go look for him and confront him before he broke down.. and Justin understood ..

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OMIGOSH. Don't apologize! We're just stating our opinions here. I LOVE these discussions. It keeps B/J alive and it peels back some of their many layers.
awww


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Debbie always thinks and says the worst about Brian. It's disgraceful. She even contradicts herself and makes no sense. One minute she's saying Brian loves Justin and the next she's saying that Brian never did. Ooooooooo. These writers.
Yes they did a very poor job here .. Brian would have deserved at least a motherfigure who didn't badmouth him...

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I don't think it was b/c he didn't trust Debbie. Unfortunately, Brian's taste in friends is appalling and he thinks of Deb as his second Mom, though he SHOULDN'T trust her.

He just CANNOT verbalize I LOVE YOU to or about Justin. It's too deadly to him. He's so vulnerable all the time about Justin. Saying those words is the death knell for Brian.

It was BECAUSE he trusted her that he was able to give her the affirmative "huff."

He would've denied to anybody else, except maybe Justin. I often wonder what would have happened if Justin asked Brian directly, "do you love me?"
You are right.. he probably would have denied it with everybody else, and the question is a good one! Never thought about that.. the only thing Justin asked was "would you mind if I wasn't there".. and Brian got away with saying really nothing and leaving the decition only by Justin.. I wonder if he would have stayed with Brian instead Ethan if Brian would have said yes at that moment..instead telling him that there are no locks on the door.. Justin was blind for his bodylanguage in that scene

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I'm a genius, aren't I? Even a broken clock's right twice a day!! I just laid out almost every possibility with the exception of throwing Justin out. One of them has to be right. It's like I threw spaghetti against a barn. LOL
You absolutly are You found the perfect solution
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:11 PM
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No he wasn't afraid, but they scared him.. yes he was consumed by them, that's what made it so scary for him.. he didn't really know how to cope with them and he wasn't in controll of them anymore..
I think Brian was in control. He partied, went to the hospital, went to work and functioned, then repeated the cycle. Anybody else would've been hospitalized themselves b/c they wouldn't be able to keep up that pace. Brian was in full on pain management mode and he was doing what he had to to get through.

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I don't think he didn't care who saw it.. because would have been that the reason, he would have visited Justin during the day were the other could see heim.. he made them believe he didn't care, and they didn't look close enough to look right through him..
That was shame and guilt from his believing he caused the bashing. Notice when he's in the hospital immediately afterwards. He's not in the waiting room where presumably Jennifer and Justin's family are. He's alone. He couldn't face ANYBODY b/c of his feeling responsible.

Brian's also practical. Everybody visited Justin during the day. Brian knew there were plenty of people in case Justin needed something. When was Justin vulnerable and alone? At night. That's when Brian stood point. He was guarding Justin and protecting him like Rage would - in the shadows of the night.

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not visiting him in hospital and when he came out of it.. Justin had to go look for him and confront him before he broke down.. and Justin understood ..
Again, did you see Brian's face when Justin was at Woody's? Gale's acting in 201-202 was brilliant. He actually portrayed the looked of "seeing a ghost." Brian had so much guilt and shame. How could he face the person he loved when he felt he was the one who caused his love such pain and possible permanent damage?

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You are right.. he probably would have denied it with everybody else, and the question is a good one! Never thought about that.. the only thing Justin asked was "would you mind if I wasn't there".. and Brian got away with saying really nothing and leaving the decition only by Justin.. I wonder if he would have stayed with Brian instead Ethan if Brian would have said yes at that moment..instead telling him that there are no locks on the door.. Justin was blind for his bodylanguage in that scene
My cousin married this woman in a shotgun wedding. He loved her but they fought like cats and dogs. I'll never forget what he told me...if she knew how to handle me I'd give her anything she wants. I love her. But, she just can't figure out how to handle me.

That's Justin. I think he's got it down sometimes, then he blows it. Sometimes Brian needs a pouty "please." Other times he needs a bossy command. When Justin hits it correctly Brian's putty in his hands.

If Justin had asked him that direct question in the correct way - Brian would probably have answered.

But, even in 308 when Justin says you would've told me that you loved me and that you'd keep on loving me even after I was gone. Brian STILL didn't say it or even nod an agreement. So, who knows?
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:20 AM
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I think Brian was in control. He partied, went to the hospital, went to work and functioned, then repeated the cycle. Anybody else would've been hospitalized themselves b/c they wouldn't be able to keep up that pace. Brian was in full on pain management mode and he was doing what he had to to get through.
you call that control? I'm not sure.. I would say the more he fell into his pain managment, the more it showed how he felt like losing all control.. this pattern for him was in my eyes a way to get back controll, cause he hated the feeling of not being in cotrol.. and he probaly just was lucky that he was trained so good with drinking or drugging, cause he would for sure been hospitalized if not I just think about Michael, who didn't see him for a while, that he drank more then he ever swa him before) Yes .. I agree, he functioned, but that was all he did.. he wanted to stopp feeling anything, cause he couldn't cope with his feelings.. that is sure is not having control


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That was shame and guilt from his believing he caused the bashing. Notice when he's in the hospital immediately afterwards. He's not in the waiting room where presumably Jennifer and Justin's family are. He's alone. He couldn't face ANYBODY b/c of his feeling responsible.
ITA.. he completly blamed himslef for what happened... and he couldn't stand being questioned about what had happened, but I'm not sure the others already knew what was going on. Michale came, because he called him himself.. the other probnably weren't htere at that moment. it takes a while till they get informed, cause I don't think Michael called his mom imideatly.. he was probably so shocked by the phonecall, that the only thing he did, was rushing to Brians side, and maybe then he started calling people, when he knew himslef what was going on.. I don't think that the hospital called Justins family.. they would have sent the police to tell, wouldn't they?

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Brian's also practical. Everybody visited Justin during the day. Brian knew there were plenty of people in case Justin needed something. When was Justin vulnerable and alone? At night. That's when Brian stood point. He was guarding Justin and protecting him like Rage would - in the shadows of the night.
of course that was practical, but he also avoided everybody else cause he was afraid of being blamed over and over again.. I guess he was pretty aware of the opinion his "friends and family" and he blamed himself enough so he didn't want to meet them. but why not wanting to meet Justin? Was he so ashamed of himslef that he didn't want to see him anymore? did he really think Justin would blame him too?


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Again, did you see Brian's face when Justin was at Woody's? Gale's acting in 201-202 was brilliant. He actually portrayed the looked of "seeing a ghost." Brian had so much guilt and shame. How could he face the person he loved when he felt he was the one who caused his love such pain and possible permanent damage?
He looked like a deer cought in the headlight.. but he should have known, that avoiding to meet Justin would be worthless.. hasn't he learned a thing about Justin beeing persistant? He always found him.. and it was good he did, btw.. it just didn't make sense to me..

or thought Brian he was punishing himslef with not going to see him. It couldn't be that he thought Justin wouldn't want to see him, cause he knew Justin asked for him all the time


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My cousin married this woman in a shotgun wedding. He loved her but they fought like cats and dogs. I'll never forget what he told me...if she knew how to handle me I'd give her anything she wants. I love her. But, she just can't figure out how to handle me.

That's Justin. I think he's got it down sometimes, then he blows it. Sometimes Brian needs a pouty "please." Other times he needs a bossy command. When Justin hits it correctly Brian's putty in his hands.

If Justin had asked him that direct question in the correct way - Brian would probably have answered.


Not being able to always push the right buttons with Brian, I think the reason therefore was Justins age.. he was smart, but he had no life experience.. and since Brian had life experience, but no experience in love and relationship, he couldn't guide him there.. they bothe had to learn and I would say Justin did a good job in learning very quick..

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But, even in 308 when Justin says you would've told me that you loved me and that you'd keep on loving me even after I was gone. Brian STILL didn't say it or even nod an agreement. So, who knows?
But it gave Brian something to think about.. I guess he needed to hear that from Justin to see that it just wasn't enough to see all his love, which Justin obviously didn't, but he needed to hear it more clearly... Justin noticed that he overlooked all the little signs.. again, I would say it was because of the missing life experience, but he learned.. that's why he said that now he knows what to expect, and what to look for to see it.. he had to pay more attention instead of hearing to believe

does that make sense?
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Old 11-16-2017, 05:58 AM
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I think Brian was in control. He partied, went to the hospital, went to work and functioned, then repeated the cycle. Anybody else would've been hospitalized themselves b/c they wouldn't be able to keep up that pace. Brian was in full on pain management mode and he was doing what he had to to get through.
Brian almost always had a lot of stamina. He was constantly moving, one way or another.
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:45 AM
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Brian almost always had a lot of stamina. He was constantly moving, one way or another.
Uber Stud and Uber tolerance

I love when Mikey just got back from Oregon and Brian had calmed way down after Jennifer asked him never to see Justin again.

Mikey just got a b--- job in the back room and he's standing there with a popper hanging out of his nose.



Mikey tells Brian that Mikey could party all night and just like Brian could. Brian just laughed.



Yeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhh....riiiiiiiiiiight.

Mikey would be dead of a heart attack or be carted off to a mental institution in a straight jacket if he tried to do what Brian does.
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Old 11-17-2017, 05:12 AM
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That first image!

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Mikey would be dead of a heart attack or be carted off to a mental institution in a straight jacket if he tried to do what Brian does.
Funny, I always thought that would happen to Brian.
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Old 11-17-2017, 07:24 AM
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That first image!



Funny, I always thought that would happen to Brian.
LOL - Naaahhhhhhhh, my Brian can handle his sh--.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:01 AM
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that image with Mikey having that popper hanging out of his nose is hillarious

I'm sure Mikey wouldn't survive the amount of drugs and booze Brian did he was mostly the driver so he had an excuse
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