galesgirl645

Who says he was truly alone? Michael was there and Justin while not physically present was in Brian's heart and so was Gus. I think they made it work.

soulmatejunkee

But why is it the same way as it was in the pilot?

Just because Brian's dancing (and probably doing some other kind of celebration) doesn't mean he's still the same guy he was 5 years ago. A lot of things changed since then.

As I said, I think practically everything that happened after 5.10 until the end when they're dancing again, happened under shock. For Brian it seemed as if there was no time anymore because every second could be the last and so he acted like "It's now or never". IMO he wasn't thinking very rational, he looked through a tunnel (I don't know how to explain it in english, in german it's called "Tunnelblick"). He only focused on Justin, making him happy, being with him, making sure that he's save, that he's with him, etc. I mean... really, Justin talked about a house with pool and stables and got it. Justin talked about flowers that need to be imported from China (!) and he would've got them. There was no discussion anymore. Whatever Justin wanted, whatever he said... he got it. That's what I call a "Tunnelblick" and IMO that happened out of shock.

And as soon as Justin broke this shock-state when he started a discussion about cuddling and didn't give in, Brian started to discuss again, too.

Actually in 5.13 there were 2 little moments when I thought, Brian seemed very relaxed and happy or satisfied - first when they bought their suits and made fun in front of the mirror and then when they announced that the wedding got canceled.

I wasn't happy with the ending, Justin should've been there...

i never learn

how is it the same? he was alone in the pilot, distanced from linds and gus and basically only had michael to depend on; same as the final moments of the series finale. i really don't know what else to say on this topic... i've said it all.

soulmatejunkee

Well, then we disagree.
I don't think that 1.01 Brian is the same guy as 5.13 Brian.

Actually, for me, in the end of the show, Brian was more distanced from Michael than from Justin to me.

i never learn

no, brian isn't the same person, but he ends up in the same place. i said that like five times though. either my posts are being skimmed or i need to explain my opinion better. and, yes, brian and justin are definitely closer, but brian still needs michael in the closing segment of the show... sadly.

galesgirl645

of course he'll need Michael he's his friend.

i never learn

that's up for debate, claudia! lol.

eta: steffi, ok, i have more to say about brian and his seemingly unhappiness. first of all, do you remember when justin tells linds that new york isn't the chance of a lifetime, but brian is? that, right there, to me, was how justin has always regarded his relationship with brian, which if that weren't true, he wouldn't have committed himself to the kind of relationship brian wanted for all those years. secondly, i know you think brian did all of those things after 510 out of shock, but him keeping the rings makes me believe brian honestly wanted to marry justin, not even someday, but in that very moment. i mean, i can't seriously think that brian's gestures weren't genuine because brian, since season two, has wanted justin in his life. so, in actuality, and i know you agree that you wanted a happy ending, but it's not even about the ending that makes me stop and ponder... it's brian shutting down. and i know i keep saying this, but on some level, you have to agree that it would make sense that brian would be perfectly happy marrying justin w/o mourning his former single life. it's like, in comparison to justin, isn't there a point where brian has to commit himself as much as justin did to him and be happy just having that versus everything? that's why i find season five so frustrating... even the end of four suggests brian is ready for more, then he's not. if i were justin, i'd leave too. lol.

soulmatejunkee

*gg*

Agree, but what does that have to do with Brian's seemingly unhappiness?
After 5.11 - if Justin has to choose between whatever and Brian, he'll always choose Brian, that's what I think. Actually I don't doubt that.

Yes, I can see that, too.
Okay, that's going to sound weird now, I'm not sure how to say/write it, I try. Just because I think that everything that had happened between "I love you" and "...but never cuddles" happened out of shock I don't think that Brian didn't want those things. But while Justin was dreaming of that to happen practically since "How is it going? Had a busy night?" it was very new for Brian and IMO it happened to fast for him to completely get into it as something he truly wanted to have.

And the rings - I'm 100% sure that if Justin would've said "Okay, lets get married, just the two of us, no one else" he would've done it immediately (actually that would be a cool little FF) and he wouldn't regret it later, but it would've happened out of fear, too. At least for Brian. Because it doesn't matter how often Justin's going to tell him that they will see each other again, Brian will never truly believe in it. He'll always be scared that one day Justin will stop calling and stop coming back. But if they were married or even wear the rings, there's something to hold on too. And I think that's important for Brian. IMO that's the reason why he kept the rings.

Which - I want to make sure - doesn't mean that he doesn't really want to marry Justin!!

I think Brian is ready for more but is trying too much! I mean he's doing things he doesn't have to do. It seems that practically everything he said and did was thoughtful and planed (which I don't think, but that's how it seemed). There was no sarcasm anymore. He seemed to shut himself down to make sure that he won't say anything Justin could misunderstand, since for Brian it's clear that Justin couldn't see how much he loved him until he told him - which we know isn't true, but I think that's what Brian thinks. I really think this is not so much about what he's doing, it's about what he's saying.

I think he's fine with being committed, even married and also with being romantic from time to time ... but he doesn't know how to act on it. I mean, when he went to see Justin after the ILY he was, well, almost "normal", not over-the-top romantic and he wanted to move on - with Justin - but got rejected. So he acted on that. And instead of talking this out he acted on it and gave Justin what he thought he wanted to have.

And when it worked out, when Justin said "Yes, I will marry you", it's understandable that Brian thought okay, this is what I have to do and so it all went wrong.

I good talk would've prevented that and honestly, I was a little disappointed in the writers, that they didn't make Justin to get through it sooner.

Manu9

I think I understood what you meant now. On some level, I agree with you. Brian seems to be in the same place he was in S1, depending on Michael and dancing in Babylon and not close to Lindsay, Gus and Justin. But I think the similarity is only true in terms of space. Emotionally, he is way different than in S1 and also his relationships with those people are different. The relationship with Justin is in my opinion stronger than ever, the friendship with Michael has developed and is now more mature and more sane and balanced, the relationship with Gus and Lindsay is much more closer and committed. And to those, we have to add a newfound friendship with Ted, which is honest and real and close as it never was before. Even with Emmett I think they are closer. And Debbie is always there and he's gained a new mother in Jen. So I think that emotionally, he's in a very different place and that makes the difference for me. It still sucks that the persons he loves the most physically leave him, and that's what I would change, at least with Lindsay and Gus. But I still think that at the end of the show Brian is a more complete and happier person that he was in S1.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked for him to have a traditional happy ending: Justin gives up NYC and stays and marries him, Lindsay and Gus don't move away. But I think maybe the end we got had more sense and was more true to the character and his journey as it was written by CowLip. It's difficult to explain, but I see Brian as a tragic character, one that has to battle with the ugly of life and one that complete happiness will always elude. I think that's part of his charm as a character, part of why we are so interested in him. It hurts that Brian, and we with him, got so close to the full happiness, which we had cheered for the entire show, just to see it taken away at the very end. But I also think it's so very typical of life and that makes the show more realistic. I know he's the only one who in the end seems to lose everything, but I think that's because Brian is THE character of the show, the one the writers always used as moral compass and as instrument for the portrayal of their beliefs.

galesgirl645

Well said Manu

Manu9

Glad you agree But I think it's ok and also normal to have different opinions about things and it's what makes discussions more interesting

i never learn

everything, since it doesn't make sense that he is unhappy. i mean, if season five is supposed to portray brian's evolution as a character, didn't season two, three and four reflect brian's gradual build towards that? as justin said, he thought brian asking him to move in meant that they were going to have a real relationship now, which didn't happen at all, so even after committing to such a task, after knowing he couldn't live without justin, that should have made him embrace his choices and future, not dread it imo. that's why i don't think he did certain things out of shock/believe the writers wrote him into a corner and had no choice but to contradict the entire bj buildup.

i agree that there was fear involved in brian's thought process, yes. and even the beginning of five shows brian more willing to let justin go versus holding onto him coming back, which is sad b/c he has such little faith in their relationship, but i also believe brian would have married justin for the right reasons and not just because he was afraid. i think what i love about the rings, in juxtaposition to the drawer, is as you say, they are something to hold onto, something tangible for brian to have, where as the drawer was not... just an empty space to be filled. i think, in essence, brian does overcome his fear in the finale, but his words are still full of faithlessness. i guess that's what he needs justin for. lol.

the moment i knew it was so beyond brian's control was when he told mel and linds that he wouldn't give them his blessing to leave. i mean, i'm sure brian had hesitations himself, but with justin basically saying, i don't want that, brian reacted, which was a hard thing to watch. i think trying to please justin became limitless to brian and the writers took it to a level it didn't really have to go.

galesgirl645

I think Brian will always be more a man of action than words because when it comes to feelings he just isn't good at expressing them verbally.

i never learn

what more could anyone need than i love you? as corny as that sounds...

soulmatejunkee

I sort of agree with that. On the other hand... there was too much going on and causing trouble for Brian. He felt left out IMO. Michael was leaving him - slowly but steady - for a live Brian always always told him that they don't need it. With Michael moving on, it seemed that Brian felt as if he had to proof to himself that his way of life was the right way.

That was a step back compared to what we got in the Seasons 2-4 but it was not out of character. People tend to fall back into old behaviour.

I think it's hard for him to trust into people. For him the line "People always leave" fits perfectly. I mean, his parents left him, in Season 5 even Michael, who promised to always be there, left him, and even Justin was willing to leave. As much as I think that Justin does love Brian, I also think he would've stayed in LA if the movie would've been done and Brian wouldn't have given in (Saying "I miss you" or "I can't wait for you to come home").

And now Justin was leaving again for another town to build his future - just like he did with L.A. I'm sure Brian wants to believe that his ILY was enough and that just because they didn't marry he would see Justin again... but it's also understandable that the old fear was back. And yes, he needs Justin to keep this relationship alive. That's always how it works, IMO. As soon as Justin gives up, it's done. Season 5 was the only time when Brian started to fight for Justin.

Hmm, never saw it that way. Actually for me Brian acted very selfish when he said "no". Other than others I never saw him as a "good father" (which doesn't mean that I don't think he loves Gus and that a part of him really wants to be a good daddy for the kid) and keeping Gus and Lindsay (!) was only a selfish wish.

Never thought it had anything to do with Justin, well, I think Justin's words made Brian think differently, but I never thought that he did it to please Justin.