i never learn

since when did brian push linds, gus or ted away? even stating he pushed michael and justin away is a broad statement because that happened in seasons one and two, but both were very particular cases of brian feeling as if they would be better off w/o him. anyway, one has to wonder if you know a person so well, especially what they are capable of and what they won't willingly give you, why hold out hope all of that will one day suddenly change? it's a choice to be in someone's life, unless they don't want you in it, which from what we've heard time and again, the people who knew brian so well shouldn't have expected any thing more from him because he was always upfront about who he was. hell, that was the basis of michael's very argument against justin in season three, which makes michael's stance against brian in season five rather hypocritical.

galesgirl645

People will always want something from you and I don't think he ever pushed Lindsay away, Ted at least the beginning he didn't really much care about him

i never learn

so true! so sad though. i think what's always baffled me about brian in particular is that he seems to be enough for others a majority of the time... there are just these instances where he's not and it's like, but that's who he is. i mean, how can you expect something from someone when you consciously know it won't happen? i guess that's partly why i love the first bj proposal so much. on one hand, it felt so organic and excuse me for saying this, romantic, yet for justin to say no was brian finally getting a taste of his own medicine. can't help but laugh at the karma b/c what goes around, comes around.

soulmatejunkee

@Manu
Like I said, I don't see the "who wouldn't" as "You're unworthy of love".

@Lexi
I never thought about the 1st proposal and the "no" as Karma
That's kinda ironic. I like that POV.

Manu9

Probably Michael didn't intend his words as saying Brian was unworthy of love either, but I kind of think that's how Brian himself took it. And what he believed the words to mean for himself is the only thing that matters in the end, when it comes to his own feelings.

I'm a little conflicted about the matter of people wanting more from Brian even though they knew who Brian was and Brian was honest about it. On one hand, I think that's true and it's why for a long time I was annoyed at Justin for leaving in S5, after having left and come back in S2/S3. On the other hand though, I think that what Brian lets people believe he is, what he says to be, isn't all of him. And I think the people closest to him in life knows it and that's why sometimes they can't help but ask for more. S1 Brian is quite different from the Brian we get to see later. There is a change and I think you don't change unless what you become was already part of yourself. The seeds of who Brian became were in him all along and I think people like Justin and Michael could see it. Lindsay and Debbie too. Even Ted later.

soulmatejunkee

You know, I still don't really get it...
Sure it was hurtful, no doubt. And no one wants to hear that.
But honestly, who wants to hear "It's a farce! It's a freak show!" ?
And who wants to hear all the stuff Justin had to take?

I know we tend to feel sorry for Brian because of his horrible childhood, but that's not an excuse for the way he talks to others from time to time and about what they love/want/need/have.

mylu

it's not a real excuse but you can some how get why he has hard time open up to ppl. B/c all he heard (from his parents) was how hard he was to love. ANd then he meet ppl that loves him alot. It must been hard, kinda.

WildRose

I think it's almost impposiable to seperate Brian's terrible childhood from his actions and reaction as a grwon man. his childhood left huge emotional scars in his soul,and in a way left him emotionaly disabled. that's why he stuck by his "I don't belive in love" mantra for so long,and ran away from everything a considered to be "lesbionic".
I love the ever present conflict between the two sides of Brian. the rough,tough succesful,confidant guy on one hand, and a very insecure,guarded, emotionaly troubled soul on the other hand. I think Justin had a lot to do with unlocking some of the mystery that is called Brian Kinney.
and btw,since I'm a great beliver in post 513 BJ I'd like to belive their mutual journy of self discovery , both personaly,and as a couple,is not over.

Manu9

Steffi I think telling someone his choices are a joke is different than telling them they'll never have someone who'll stick by them. One is a judgement of choices, the other is a statement about a person and what he is worth and to whom. I don't excuse Brian's general attitude towards Michael and Justin in S5, because it was indeed awful, but in this particular fight, I think I can understand and be more sympathetic. I can't be so much so with Michael, because yes he was being insulted, but Brian wasn't telling him he couldn't be loved and above all, Michael wasn't just coming out of a breakup with the love of his life. I'm sorry, but as much as I understand why Michael lost his temper like that and as much as I think Brian was wrong in saying those things, I still mantain that Michael crossed a limit.

galesgirl645

It was like those words re-confirmed to Brian that he really was unworthy of being loved.

soulmatejunkee

Still no for me

All Michael is saying is that the way Brian behaves makes it impossible for people to be with him, to live with him - but not to love him.

There was no line that said that Justin or Michael didn't love him (anymore) and that's also not what Brian was thinking, otherwise he wouldn't have started to fight after the bombing.

I mean, Brian Kinney wouldn't put his heart on the road if he wouldn't be sure that Justin still loved him.

IMO Brian was pretty aware that Michael and Justin (and Lindsay) really loved him and really cared about him, but didn't want to or couldn't share his way of life anymore, because they had changed and he refused to change with them, to grow up. And that's the reason why Michael left him and why Justin left him - it had nothing to do with love. It's all about the relationship - that's what he told Ted, too.

Brian didn't blame Michael that Justin stopped loving him...

i never learn

lol, steffi. i'm sure if someone said to you, hey, i love you, i really do, but i can't be around you anymore, you'd think, hey, that's love. we're not even trying to invalidate michael's or justin's love for brian though. we're saying michael said if a person is given enough reason to, they'll leave brian, which in essence is saying, who you are isn't worthy of being committed to and since love and commitment go hand in hand, it isn't that far of a stretch to accuse michael of the obvious. why it always comes down to what brian is willing to give/incapable of giving, idk, but again, brian has always been upfront about who he is. that may be one of his biggest flaws, but for anyone to ever expect anything more is their own failure, not brian's.

soulmatejunkee

No I would be hurt - just as Brian was.
But I wouldn't take it as "You're unworthy of love".
On the other hand, yeah, I'm not like Brian. I do believe in love and if I love someone I am willing to tell him/her and live in a comitted relationship.

Manu9

I think that says it all though: you admit yourself you're not like Brian and you believe in love and committment and being open about your feelings. Brian is very much different and I think that changes the meaning of that sentence, at least in his eyes and in the way he interprets it. For someone that has so many issues with romantic love in the first place, to be told nobody would stay with you if you are the way you are, if you act the way you feel like acting, is a very strong statement that surely doesn't make him trust love more than the little he does in the first place. It's like Michael is telling him he can have someone by his side only if he changes himself. Which is not wrong in general, because you do have to give something back and more times than not, you do have to compromise to be with someone else, to share a life together. But on the other hand, it's a bit sad to be told you can't have anyone if you don't change yourself. In that moment, Brian is stuck in his fears and the belief he can't be more than he is. He'll change that later, when he realizes that there is more to him that just being Brian Kinney the great stud for the rest of his life. But in that moment, I think Michael's words are kind of a proof that unconditional love doesn't exist. And as much as I think Brian was difficult to live with, I can't help but think about the fact Brian never asked Justin to be any different than who he was. The same wasn't always true for Justin towards Brian. This is not to criticize Justin and the fact he had needs and wanted those needs to be fulfilled at least partially. I'm pretty sure I'd ask Brian for something too, if I were in Justin's shoes. But I think it makes even more evident and strong how much Brian is capable of love, in spite of everything.

soulmatejunkee

I don't think we agree here.

Actually I don't think Brian was scared that he can't be different, he was living in his "I won't"-bubble. He didn't want to change anything. He didn't even try.

And like you said: It's the truth, if he's not willing to change, to compromise... people will leave him. And that's exactly what had happened. It's hurtful.

And I don't think that Michael speech didn't change anything for him. He apologized to Michael - he tried to accept his decissions. And that's when I blame Michael, because he knows Brian and to kick his ass, to break up with him... THAT is something I call wrong.

And that's also a moment where I would say that Brian felt unworthy. At least that's when I would.