Manu9

^ watching S3 again I feel stronger than ever that Justin had a lot to do with Brian's finale choice to give everything up to fight Stockwell. I just rewatched 3.12 and once again Justin is there, telling Brian how much Stockwell is taking away from him, even if he's not realizing it fully yet. I picture Brian having these thoughts of what Justin has been saying him all along, going around in his head when he finally decides to pay for those ads. I think it's a beautiful think that with his example but also with his continuing nagging at him, Justin finally helps Brian realize what's the right thing to do.

It's also great that Justin tried to help him nail the cop at the gay bar

galesgirl645

In a way Justin was Brian's conscience

love how even though it was a bust Justin still kept in character and demanded his pay

WildRose

oh,I just love that scene...

going back to Brian's offer on 414- I think that when you move in with someone there is more than just bringing the actual staff to that person's house,it's mainly about commitmant and willing to live togheter.I thing Brian felt emotionaly ready to ask Justin to move back in with him at that point.
when Justin went to holywood again I guess Brian realized they both need some more time.I think Brian was so willing to wait for justin's return so I realy can't understand why they went back to those tricks.

Manu9

what tricks? you mean tricking in general? Brian's offer to move in with him had nothing to do with tricking. Their relationship in general never had anything to do with sleeping with another man. Brian never saw monogamy as a proof of love. He can very well separate love and sex. For Justin is different, but I guess he learnt to accept it in the end.

WildRose

you know I'm a big fan of Brian's,I love him,and I belive he had gone through an amazing journy troughout his time with justin,but,yes,I would have expected him to leave this tricking thing behind and stick with love and being in a monogmous relationship.I know very well that those tricks were part of Brian's image as the hottest guy in town,but since he felt commited enough to be able to ask Justin to move in with him at that point,he should have also left the tricking,and than justin would stop too.
I think BJ relationships up until that point (especialy since mid S3 and all through S4)has proven to be exciting and unconvential enough even without those occasional tricks.
well,that's how I see it,anyway.

Manu9

I don't think Brian was ready for that at the end of S4. Having Justin living with him again was one thing, committing completely like that, giving up tricking, was something else, much deeper and more complicated. They had already lived together after all, so it wasn't something new to Brian. But honestly I don't even think it's about being ready for Brian when it comes to tricking. In S5, after the proposal, he's willing to do that, but it's more for Justin than for himself. Because Brian has very clear in his mind the different between Justin and the others, so he doesn't feel the need to stop tricking. Even though at that point (post 5.10) he would do that for Justing, if he asked. But at the end of S4 Brian isn't ready at all, infact when S5 comes he reverts to his old self, which means there are still conflicts inside himself, he's still not ready to embrace his feelings for Justin completely.

WildRose

I know it's difficult to kick old habits,but I think in a way the whole tricking thing proved to be too much for Justin and that's one of the reasons he left on 502 .I can unterstand that Brian was still facing some unsolved emotional issues and he was also dealing with the "age complex" but it got to a point where he was risking his health again and I guess Justin was not willing to deal with that.
when Justin askes why are we both still doing this if we know it's not gonne work i just want to screem at Brian beacuse you love that clever devil so why won't you just go ahead and tell him?!

soulmatejunkee

I think there were very very many people who screamed that to Brian Kinney's face when Justin asked this question...

Manu9

I didn't it was clear it wasn't the right time. I knew Brian wouldn't do anything to get Justin to stay. Honestly, at that point not even the words would have kept Justin there, as they weren't enough after 5.10, at first. Not even the first proposal was enough for Justin to believe in a future together, infact he turned Brian down. Justin needed more than words and no way Brian was ready for that in 5.07. Plus, that kind of ultimatum never worked well with Brian. It didn't work in S2 and it didn't work in S5 either. When he's cornered like that, Brian doesn't react as Justin would like.

galesgirl645

It's never been easy for Brian to admit his true feelings no matter how obvious they may be, to actually say I love you to someone it's exposing you to the other person and Brian just wasn't ready for that

As for the tricking, I think that was what made their relationship so unique they weren't physically monogamous but they were emotionally monogamous which is what counts.

Manu9

I'm not sure monogamy will ever be part of their relationship. I read several fics in which in the future Brian stops tricking because Justin becomes "enough", but I don't think that's the issue, Justin has always been enough, but the tricks give him something completely different, that nothing has to do with his relationship with Justin.

galesgirl645

Plus compared to other monogamous couples their love was solid sure they had low points in the relationship but their love never faltered.

i never learn

i think the writers refusal to amalgamate brian's two selves is why there is such doubt in him succeeding in a monogamous relationship with justin. i mean, the writers made it painstakingly clear that monogamy was equivalent to death for brian, yet so was losing justin. like, you can't have it both ways, which brian spent all five seasons trying to, which worked for the most part, yet you'd think that once he stopped denying that he was actually in love and in a relationship, the writers would have wholeheartedly explored brian's acknowledgment versus slowly stripping him away because of it. like, i never doubted justin loved brian just the way he was. sure, he was hard to be in a relationship with at times, but minus the total oocness of the beginning of season three, justin loved brian flaws and all. obvs, brian loved justin too, but the moment he said it out loud, it's like who he was dissipated into thin air and brian became this sort of shell of himself. so the writers definitely contradicted themselves by not following through on brian's evolution, because to me, brian would have been completely happy marrying justin because the very basis of his being came down to being with justin. seriously, 511 proves this, but brian still kept the rings, so i can't totally fault the writers for effing it up. but yea, when you think the person you love might be dead and forces you to admit to yourself and them the truth, that totally trumps fearing that that truth is nothing more than a suicide pact, ugh!

WildRose

I think that even in S2 Brian knows that the whole tricking thing is hurting Justin and their relationships,as unconventional as they were.he knows Justin is upset about the zuckinni man and he admits they are in deep ***trouble,but he won't ansewr Justin's question(why am i here). I think that scene with Debbi at the bar is so crutial to him,however he needed much more time to work things out.
yes,it scared him to see Justin leave on S5 and altough he wasn't ready to say that he loved him I loved that he says let me know(where are you going) meaning we both need time to think where are we going with this relationships.and i think it was beautiful the way it was done.
and when Emmet tells him Justin is over at Michael's house...

ETA:one more thing about them tricks,I think it was sort of ok in S2-S3 when the whole tricking thing was part of BJ's arrangment,but later in late S4 early s5 it was differant,imo.
well maybe it was just another learning curve for BJ.

Manu9

Tricking was always part of their relationship. It was something that in S3, when Justin comes back to Brian, Justin himself accepts as one of the things to accept if he wants to be with Brian. After the proposal Brian is willing to do monogamy if that's what Justin wants, but Justin doesn't want Brian to change like that, for him. And Justin is arrived to the point when he understands more than ever before how much tricking has nothing to do with their relationship. He doesn't like, I guess he will always hope Brian stops, but he's made peace with that, on my opinion.

Lexi about what you said on Brian and his two selves. I think S5 and also the end of the show were an attempt to keep both those selves. I feel the writers always "used" Brian as a symbol of gay people who are proud of themselves and don't care about eterosexuals and their "rules". But I think the BJ love story got so powerful season by season, that in the end they couldn't disregard it. So they tried to have Brian in love and committed to Justin and also at peace with the idea of being a father, but also the still the Brian who was the symbol of gay people who are proud of themselves and do what they want and have their own rules. I feel that's why ultimately we get Brian keeping the rings and saying "it's only time" and still also Brian dancing in Babylon, like S1 Brian. Considering what I've read from people about S5 and the finale of the show, I guess it didn't work for everyone. I have to say it worked for me though. Kind of saying there is no black and white, you can be gay and proud and don't care about how eterosexuals live their life and consider love, but you can still fall in love with someone and have a relationship but keep your queer identity. For a long time on the show, I'd say more or less till S5 and the bombing, Brian considers the two things impossible to exist together. Being in love make him a lesbian or an imitation of eterosexuals. It's only late in S5 that he realizes he can still be queer but in love and committed to Justin.