[eternalfate]

^ Happy about that, sad about your sleeping problems again.

[crash landing]

Its evening out again hopefully

[eternalfate]

Any rants today?

[crash landing]

ALL SUMMER thought would be getting Arrow a day before from the channel that does Flash|Legends and Arrow NOOOOOOOOOO premiere is 18th not 11th - thankfully SPACE picked it up and will air when CW does

[eternalfate]

^ Oh wow!

[crash landing]

Yea so that distracted me for a bit where was already distracted with my Lover whom we are barely on at the same time from her very late night posting - than was out of the house for an hour

So I hope tomorrow provides a round here from me

[eternalfate]

^ So you both post online a lot than?

[crash landing]

Nah she's not around much Crystal speaking of whose my Lover over from Arrow

[eternalfate]

Hope no Sunday rantings from anyone.

[crash landing]

Last week sucked ended up hungover for 2 days than the weather was horrible

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by we are not alone (View Post) Last week sucked ended up hungover for 2 days than the weather was horrible

Oh, I'm sorry, Sarah. You've gotta stop getting hungover like that. I get worried about you.

And when are you gonna come back and post with me?

[eternalfate]

^ She's been having an computer charger issue. And I've been having a too busy to post problem with my 4pm - 1am work schedule. lol

[PhoenixRising]

Originally Posted by eternalfate (View Post) ^ She's been having an computer charger issue. And I've been having a too busy to post problem with my 4pm - 1am work schedule. lol

Oh, okay. Thanks for letting me know, Tia. Now to continue my rant here on the appropriate thread.

As I said on the GD thread, I had heard this report about Caitlin moving to Legends of Tomorrow on Facebook and I was pretty upset. Needless to say, I haven't been watching The Flash this season, having been so thoroughly disappointed by last season and how far this show has fallen from the greatness of season one. But I probably should've guessed that Wally would be the most logical choice to replace Firestorm. Those damn writers from BUDDY TV need to get their facts straight. I've been so frustrated by the way The Flash has wasted Caitlin and Danielle for the past two seasons that I overreacted.

As for Candice Patton, I don't criticize her at all. She doesn't write the scripts or run the show, and I'm sure she's quite a capable actress when she's given material to work with. My problem is that she doesn't have much to work with on The Flash other than to just be there. Oh sure, this season they made her the leader of team Flash at STAR Labs, but that move still came out of nowhere because there was nothing that led up to it over the past three seasons nor was it dictated by anything other than their desire to give Iris something relevant to do other than just be "the girlfriend." She's still a girl who worked in a coffee shop with an online degree in psychology and wrote regularly in her blog, yet somehow managed to get hired by a Central City newspaper. Normally it takes years of journalism school and interning to get a position like that. I don't think the Boston Globe, The New York Times, The Philadelphia Inquirer, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, or The San Francisco Chronicle give jobs to bloggers with no journalism experience. And once again, her job as a reporter was never once relevant to the STAR Labs storyline, so what was the point? And notice how they quickly ditched the reporter storyline to make Iris more central to STAR Labs. But Iris still doesn't fit in at STAR Labs having no medical, technical, or scientific training or knowledge, and no qualifications for even being there let alone leading the team. But making her the leader at least gives her something to do other than just stand around and watch everyone else, which is what she was doing over the past two seasons, hence the decision to promote her to a leadership role. But it wasn't earned nor developed in any way.

I appreciate that you don't believe that Iris' presence has caused bad storytelling, Tia, but don't forget the reason why the writers have not written the story correctly. Every storyline they've come up with since season one was created for no purpose other than to give Iris a more central role, and most of those storylines were terrible. Season 3 was the worst season yet, but the entire narrative for season 3 was built around Iris. Why did Barry stupidly created that "Flashpoint" aberration? Because the writers needed to create Savitar. And why was Savitar needed? To give Iris a central role. And what was that central role? Her dying, of course. And throughout the course of that entire season we saw Barry and Team Flash do one nonsensical thing after another to prevent Iris from dying, which led to plotlines that made no sense, scenes and episodes that contradicted previous ones, illogical decisions that made Barry seem foolish, and also the whole "Killer Frost" storyline that had Caitlin develop her split personality out of nowhere and for no apparent reason. But at least Caitlin had a reason for being in season one where she was a vital member of Team Flash at STAR Labs and she, Barry, and Cisco were the core of the story that made things work, while Iris was always sitting on the outskirts as the object of Barry's affection, but never relevant or vital to the story.

When all of the bad writing decisions made are for the purpose to facilitate a more central role for a character that the writers have never known what to do with since season one, then I can say that this character is the reason the writing has gone downhill. Has the writing for this season improved since making Iris team leader at STAR Labs? I don't know, was there a reason to make her the leader at STAR Labs other than to give her something to do besides being the girl who stands around? And does she have any qualifications for that job other than serving coffee, an online degree in psychology, and blogging?

Originally Posted by Coconut1214 (View Post) While I do agree that Iris doesn't get to do anything noteworthy. I like Candice Patton and think she's a good actress that should be given more to do that is part of the story. They should've made her a cop like she was on Earth 2 or a criminal psychologist like they originally planned. I think the whole Flarrowverse as issues writing for their female characters. Flash is the worst at it. The female characters on the Flash barely get any stories of their own, while we get entire arcs devoted to the new male character Stretchy guy and DaVoe. We still have no idea why Caitlin gets a split personality with her powers in 2 seasons. Iris' stories are never about her, they are always about Barry, Joe or Wally. Even the mother storyline was more about Joe and Wally reconnecting then about Iris losing her mother. Iris is like Laurel on Arrow. The writers don't seem to care about writing storyines to make her important. They just move her around and place her in the plot.

I agree with you there, Melissa. The Flawrroverse does have an issue with writing female characters. But only a few, like Laurel and Iris. Other characters, like Felicity, Caitlin, or Sara, they seem to do a great job on. I've seen all three of those characters being given great depth and compelling story arcs that have made them all interesting and fascinating characters to watch. There's a reason why SnowBarry shippers exist, and it's the same reason why Olicity shippers exist. As for Sara Lance, the Arrow writers gave her the storyline that should've gone to Laurel, and Laurel got a storyline that basically made her not only irrelevant, but annoying. And Iris? Well, let's put it this way, the original Flash TV series got rid of Iris West after one episode to focus on the STAR Labs storyline with Barry and Christina McGee. Caitlin Snow is basically the Flarrowverse's version of Christina McGee. So if the intention wasn't to pair her with Barry, what is she even doing there? And if the writers did want Barry paired with Iris, why structure the show in a way that mirrors the original 1990 Flash TV show that centers the story on STAR Labs where Iris has nothing to do? This wasn't just a failure of execution, it was a failure of inception.

Even in the comics, Iris West was never more than just a poor-man's Lois Lane. There's a reason why Iris and Carol Ferris(Hal Jordan's love interest in Green Lantern) never achieved the iconic status of Lois Lane and Selina Kyle. One cannot imagine Superman without Lois Lane. Clark and Lois are like David and Maddie on Moonlighting or Mulder and Scully on The X-Files, except that one of them is an indestructible superhero. They're partners, co-journalists, and complement each other. One also cannot imagine Batman without Catwoman. Bruce and Selina are like a tragic love-hate relationship out of an epic poem. Carol Ferris? Why does a cosmic superhero need a girlfriend who runs an airline? And Iris West is a Lois Lane for a superhero that doesn't need a Lois Lane, especially not on the TV show where STAR Labs is the central focus and Iris just does not fit into that format in any way. Like you said, they keep shifting her around to try and shoehorn her into the show rather than giving her any kind of consistency. Barry, Caitlin, and Cisco, have basically been consistent since day one. You know why they're there and why they work together so well. In fact, their storytelling has actually suffered because the show keeps having to rearrange things to accommodate Iris, which is the main reason why I dislike her character so much. It's because her presence in my opinion is what keeps this show from being as good as it was in season one and as good as it could've been from then on. At least Arrow admitted where it had gone wrong with Laurel and got rid of her, replacing her with Black Siren. But The Flash still keeps Iris around like a stone around the neck of the show, and that's why I gave up on it.

[Coconut1214]

Sara gets better treatment than most because they write Sara like a guy that happens to be a woman. Felicity has taken Laurel's old spot of being one of the most divisive characters on the Flarrowverse. They are not bothering to explain why Caitlin has a split personality and Iris is just there.

My biggest issue with the handling of the female characters and it does include all the Flarrowverse shows, is none of the female characters are really friends. We get to see all the male characters form friendships with each other and interact like buddies all the time, Oliver/Diggle, Barry/Cisco, Cisco/Harry and Ray/Nate.

None of the female characters really get that. They just have them in scenes together and call it a day. I want to see the female characters on these shows have friendship hat we see as much as the guys friendships.

The stretchy guy is the main reason I quit the Flash. He just makes me uncomfortable watching the show after everything that's happened.

[PhoenixRising]

I agree that they do tend to write Sara that way on Legends, Melissa. But on Arrow they wrote Sara a lot better, and again, gave her the storyline that should've gone to Laurel. Sara Lance WAS the Black Canary on Arrow, and when they killed her off to have Laurel inherit the mantle, they infuriated Arrow fans who grew to love Sara a lot more than Laurel, as both Black Canary and Oliver's love interest. Yeah, I get why Felicity has become divisive, but again, she still served a relevant role on the show, that of Oracle to Oliver's Batman; the Barbara Gordon to his Bruce Wayne. They probably shouldn't have rushed the "Olicity" thing they way they did, but the fact is that it was still a relationship that the audience got to see develop over time, and got to fall in love watching them fall in love. That's the way you're supposed to do it. Making characters love interests based on off-screen backstory that the audience never gets to see - either they were college sweethearts from adolescence, or they grew up together under the same roof like siblings - is forced and boring. It breaks the rule that "you can't say it, you have to show it."

And again, the reason for Caitlin's out-of-nowhere split personality storyline is the whole Flashpoint incident, and we know why the writers chose to do that, don't we?

I also agree that the female characters in the Flarrowverse never get to have any comradery. Except for the Flash/Arrow crossover episodes where Felicity and Caitlin bonded(still my favorite) they never have any friendships develop between the women on these shows. Caitlin's relationship with Barry and Cisco is still her strongest one, and the same goes for Felicity with Oliver and Diggle. I'd say that Legends has probably done a better job in that area with Sara/Amaya or Sara/Kendra, but they never really go anywhere with it.

And as for Ralph Dibny/Elongated Man, that's the writers attempt to "lighten up" the tone of The Flash and invigorate the show after how poorly last season turned out. But they yet again fail to recognize exactly why they screwed up in season 3 and why the storyline was so bad. Just lightening things up with Ralph's adolescent humor doesn't change what's fundamentally wrong with the show and has been since season one. They have a character that doesn't fit into the format they chose for the show and they won't ever address that because they don't wanna have to say, "Look, this just isn't working..."