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Old 08-10-2008, 03:20 PM
  #46
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I don;t lilly could be an honarary marder right?

Anyway there is no way in hell that lilly can be blamed for snape going over to the dark side (as star wars as it sounds it makes sense). She done all she could for him. Thinking about it logically i can see why lilly stuck by him fr such a long time it was probably a combination of denial, loyalty and wanting to help him change. I mean think about if your friend was at risk of becoming evil wouldn't you stick by them untill you relaised it was a hopless cause too? It makes sense it's humane. However one person can not change another or help them get back on the right track unless that person is willing to take this help or wants to change. The only way snape could change was if he wanted to change it had nothing to do with lilly it was out of her hands. She did all she could, she did everything required of a good friend and he still failed her by going over to join voldemort.
Oh I totally agree. Lily sticking by him was what all friends would do but she reached her limit! I'm not saying her sticking by hijm was a bad thing but unwillingness to give up to a certain point is unhealthy. Like say her view of the maruaders on the train first year. I think she held onto that perception for a while.

Snape failed lily, lily did not fail snape.
And I can't believe I've seen people belittle the mudblood thing saying it didn't matter and lily reacted too harshly. It did matter. Especially considering the times they were in!!
And also people say james was awful because he pulled of snapes underwear and yes very cruel and i'm not saying it was ok, but as someone as firm in his beliefs of good and he had feelings for lily, I believe he was too angry and I don't think he would have been that cruel under different circumstances. When it started james just knocked him over, Snape went straight for the dark curse that could kill!


Ot from our discussion but how do you think James and Sirius became friends with lupin and wormtail?
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Old 08-10-2008, 03:21 PM
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Oh eew I didn't mean in a romantic sense at all!!!! Sirius would never have done that to James and just ew. Yes Sirius was harsher so I don't think it's a big possibility but I think it would have been easier than to be close to james at the point because of her feelings and because she probably held james up more. Plus I probably just want to think that because lily needed some fun friends. Like I'm sorry but Snape couldn't have been a fun friend. Lol.
I do think they grew a brother sister bond. Possibly after a while because of Sirius's fierce loyalty he would have probably had issues with trusting her for james, but I think while they didn't have a lot in common some of the things they did have in common were huge.
I.e loyalty, and fiery personalties. And for some reason I've always imagined them both with dark intelligent wits.

I am SO sorry if it sounded like i was implying that you said it in a romantic sense lol. I didn;t mean that. I didn't think you did either lol. The reason i said they would share a brother-sister relationship is to highlight the close bond i think they would have had. They wouldn't merely be friends - they would be closer almost like family - thats what i was trying to get at lol.

I really don't think she would have been friends with sirius before james. Sirius was way too wild for her to actually befriend before her relationship with james. I do think lilly had other fun friends though she even says to snape 'none of my friends can understand why i even talk to you'.
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Old 08-10-2008, 03:25 PM
  #48
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I am SO sorry if it sounded like i was implying that you said it in a romantic sense lol. I didn;t mean that. I didn't think you did either lol. The reason i said they would share a brother-sister relationship is to highlight the close bond i think they would have had. They wouldn't merely be friends - they would be closer almost like family - thats what i was trying to get at lol.

I really don't think she would have been friends with sirius before james. Sirius was way too wild for her to actually befriend before her relationship with james. I do think lilly had other fun friends though she even says to snape 'none of my friends can understand why i even talk to you'.
Lol! Ew how sick would Lily/sirius be. Gross.
And hah I don't think it would be possible either. I just like to spin things in my pretty little head.
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Old 08-10-2008, 03:25 PM
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And yeah as much as I love the maruaders, what they did at times to snape was definitely bullying and he bullied right back of course.
I don't see them like picking on the fat kid though.
Especially James for all of his `very accepting and in a lot of ways they were kind of a misfit group despite their charisma.
James was kind of the golden boy but then Sirius was a black and I definitely don't think they were supposed to be friends, and Lupin was this shy bookish werewolf and Wormtail was wormtail.
I agree they bullied snape, but i don't see them bullying anyone else. I have a feeling snape was the only one that they bulllied.
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Old 08-10-2008, 03:32 PM
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Yeah they talked about randomly like hexing people but I don't think that was like real bullying.
Probably just funny hexes.
The probably fought with the slytherins a lot though.
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Old 08-10-2008, 03:34 PM
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Oh I totally agree. Lily sticking by him was what all friends would do but she reached her limit! I'm not saying her sticking by hijm was a bad thing but unwillingness to give up to a certain point is unhealthy. Like say her view of the maruaders on the train first year. I think she held onto that perception for a while.

Snape failed lily, lily did not fail snape.
And I can't believe I've seen people belittle the mudblood thing saying it didn't matter and lily reacted too harshly. It did matter. Especially considering the times they were in!!
And also people say james was awful because he pulled of snapes underwear and yes very cruel and i'm not saying it was ok, but as someone as firm in his beliefs of good and he had feelings for lily, I believe he was too angry and I don't think he would have been that cruel under different circumstances. When it started james just knocked him over, Snape went straight for the dark curse that could kill!


Ot from our discussion but how do you think James and Sirius became friends with lupin and wormtail?
I agree she did reach her limit and it did get to point where it was unhealthy.

I agree the times need to be taken in too consideration. The word mudblood is a tabo in normal day let-alone when the dark lord is on a killing spree and the person who uses it is a believed future death-eater.

Sirius and James probably became friends after sirius was sorted in to gryfindor. because if you remember on the train james is very close to making friends with him and sirius tells james he may brake the tradition of only slytherins in his familly. So they where on the verge of becoming friends anyway and once sirius was sorted in to gryfindor this friendship was probably sealed. I think they probably saw remus lurking around on his own quite a few times and where probably intrigued by him and approached him, remus probably refused to be their friend and then they probably managed to get him to trust them after a long process of attempting to covince him they truly wanted to be his friend and then maybe even helping him out of a few tight spots concerning his lycanthropy. Even though they didn;t know about it at the time they probably helped him with cover stories and the likes for the one day a month he dissappeared. As for wormtail i just think James took him in because he felt sorry for him and probably thought he was a good person worthy of some friends.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:01 PM
  #52
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Sirius and James probably became friends after sirius was sorted in to gryfindor. because if you remember on the train james is very close to making friends with him and sirius tells james he may brake the tradition of only slytherins in his familly. So they where on the verge of becoming friends anyway and once sirius was sorted in to gryfindor this friendship was probably sealed. I think they probably saw remus lurking around on his own quite a few times and where probably intrigued by him and approached him, remus probably refused to be their friend and then they probably managed to get him to trust them after a long process of attempting to covince him they truly wanted to be his friend and then maybe even helping him out of a few tight spots concerning his lycanthropy. Even though they didn;t know about it at the time they probably helped him with cover stories and the likes for the one day a month he dissappeared. As for wormtail i just think James took him in because he felt sorry for him and probably thought he was a good person worthy of some friends.
ITA. I think lupin would have been a difficult person to befriend. And I think James felt bad for lupin and saw some good in him, I definitely think Sirius would have had to have been persauded. I do think they were true friends for a while, but I can see Sirius in general being turned off by a lot his personality traits. He didn't seem to like neediness or weakness. And I don't think he liked the hero worship the way james did. Although I definitely don't think that's why james liked him, or at least the sole reason.

Eventually the must have become true friends though or I refuse to believe that they would have let him in on the secret animagi or no matter how much they doubted peters power, would they have let him be secret keeper. In POA Madam rosemerta describes it like peter is a stalker but I think it might have just looked like that to people who could see James and Sirius's charm and Peters lack thereof . That would be like the trio letting colin creevy know about their secrets.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:06 PM
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ITA. I think lupin would have been a difficult person to befriend. And I think James felt bad for lupin and saw some good in him, I definitely think Sirius would have had to have been persauded. I do think they were true friends for a while, but I can see Sirius in general being turned off by a lot his personality traits. He didn't seem to like neediness or weakness. And I don't think he liked the hero worship the way james did. Although I definitely don't think that's why james liked him, or at least the sole reason.

Eventually the must have become true friends though or I refuse to believe that they would have let him in on the secret animagi or no matter how much they doubted peters power, would they have let him be secret keeper. In POA Madam rosemerta describes it like peter is a stalker but I think it might have just looked like that to people who could see James and Sirius's charm and Peters lack thereof .
Are you referring to Remus? Because if you are then i disagree. I think Sirius would been very close friends with Remus becuase he knew exactly what it was like to be the outcast. He knew what it was like to feel unwanted and out of all of the marauders he probably related to Remus the most. I think He and James both probably stood up for Remus a lot and went out of their way to try and make him realise that being a werewolf doesn't make him any less of a good persom. But then that's just my opinion

Wait lol I think you were talking about Peter - just reread and it's just a name mix up I totally agree in that case. I think Sirius would have probably gotten higly irritated with Peter and hated the fact that he worshipped them more than actually joining in and being a normal friend. He also probably hated the weakness and the need for reasurance that he was just as much a friend as the other. I also agree that they probably did become true friends eventually though. although irritated by him sirius probably still felt sorry for him and maybe even felt a bit harsh for treating him the way he did.

Another thing that probably irritated sirius was peter's lack of common sense and backbone, he probably didn't trust him completely for a long time. I can even see james having minor arguments with him about it.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:08 PM
  #54
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And yeah as much as I love the maruaders, what they did at times to snape was definitely bullying and he bullied right back of course.
I don't see them like picking on the fat kid though.
Especially James for all of his `very accepting and in a lot of ways they were kind of a misfit group despite their charisma.
James was kind of the golden boy but then Sirius was a black and I definitely don't think they were supposed to be friends, and Lupin was this shy bookish werewolf and Wormtail was wormtail.
I agree, James was poised for success at school, but the others weren't really. They were somewhat outcasts. If Sirius had been sorted into Slytherin he probably would have been a golden boy amongst them. And I do believe Snape gave as good as got, absolutely. He was more than ready to strike back in the memory.

I also agree that Lily did seem to see things the way she wanted to. She knew what Snape was doing and remained friends with him until he finally crossed a line she couldn't ignore. The she had to let him go. If her friendship wasn't enough to keep him from becoming a DE as a teenager then there wasn't anything she could have done. Even if she had returned his feelings, I don't think it would have been enough, I think she would have been killed or have to leave him at one point.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:09 PM
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Lol no I meant Peter!!!!
I think he always related to Remus well too.
I see them having a very quirky but deep friendship.
I think it's quite possible that lupin and Peter would at times feel a little jealous of the bond that Sirius/James had, because I don't see Lupin/Peter being best friends. And also I'm sure while lupin didn't care much about popularity it must have put a wedge between them at some points. Cause I see lupin not being popular because of his own anti social behavior.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:13 PM
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I also agree that Lily did seem to see things the way she wanted to. She knew what Snape was doing and remained friends with him until he finally crossed a line she couldn't ignore. The she had to let him go. If her friendship wasn't enough to keep him from becoming a DE as a teenager then there wasn't anything she could have done. Even if she had returned his feelings, I don't think it would have been enough, I think she would have been killed or have to leave him at one point.
Exactly! I know that people say love is the most important thing but Friendship is incredibly important too, and if that couldn't save him I don't see lily liking him romantically saving him. I think it's overly romantic nonsense to believe that If lily had loved him he would have been good. If you ask me he would have just been a very happy death eater.

Bottom line Snape chose the dark arts over lily maybe because he was greedy and he couldn't have all of her, but to me thats not true love and so at that time he loved the dark arts and the power he could get from it more.
In the end it was her death that woke him and I don't think anything else could have. Not even her death made him realize that all the other horrible things he did deserved remorse.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:24 PM
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I agree, James was poised for success at school, but the others weren't really. They were somewhat outcasts. If Sirius had been sorted into Slytherin he probably would have been a golden boy amongst them. And I do believe Snape gave as good as got, absolutely. He was more than ready to strike back in the memory.

I also agree that Lily did seem to see things the way she wanted to. She knew what Snape was doing and remained friends with him until he finally crossed a line she couldn't ignore. The she had to let him go. If her friendship wasn't enough to keep him from becoming a DE as a teenager then there wasn't anything she could have done. Even if she had returned his feelings, I don't think it would have been enough, I think she would have been killed or have to leave him at one point.
I totally agree with everything you said there. james had the typical popular boy trates. So does sirius but he was more of a black sheep than anything else. Peter would have been a reject due to his lack of self-worth - i mean he didn't think much of himself and looked at others for popularity and higher postion, Remus would have also been an out cast because of his introverted nature.

Lilly did see only the things she wanted to see and possibly stayed friends with snape longer than what was healthy. I agree if her friendship wan't enough then IF she loved him that wouldn't have been enough either. In fact it would have probably been even more dangerous for her because if she was in love with him she would never want to leave him regardless of all his wrong-doings and this could have presented her with an even earlier death.

How-very-girl629 - Totally agree - even after Lilly's death and after he turned to the OOTP he was still only sorry for her death he didn't care about her husband dieing or more importantly her son now being an orphan. All he could see was 'oh i have brought about lilly's death' and yea fine it's good that you feel guilty for that and remorsfull but what about all those other people? This was further proven when he asked to see harry's eyes before his death while at the time of reading i really felt sorry for him later i thought well he wanted to see lilly's eyes he wasn't doing this to set rights wrong or to help her orphaned son he was doing this to prove his love to both himself and lilly which while very sweet is still kinda selfish.

BTW Flickgoddess I love your icon!
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:29 PM
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Word. I our discussions!
And you may call me Angela.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:34 PM
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Wait lol I think you were talking about Peter - just reread and it's just a name mix up I totally agree in that case. I think Sirius would have probably gotten higly irritated with Peter and hated the fact that he worshipped them more than actually joining in and being a normal friend. He also probably hated the weakness and the need for reasurance that he was just as much a friend as the other. I also agree that they probably did become true friends eventually though. although irritated by him sirius probably still felt sorry for him and maybe even felt a bit harsh for treating him the way he did.

Another thing that probably irritated sirius was peter's lack of common sense and backbone, he probably didn't trust him completely for a long time. I can even see james having minor arguments with him about it
Oh good you saw. I definitely think he and lupin were real friends lol.
Yes I can see him and James getting into small arguements about it.
Sirius and Wormtail to me seemed like they would be true friends but I think a lot of the things that Sirius really hated were in Wormtail.They would have a tension filled friendship but in the end Sirius must have trusted him. I mean in POA he says he did it because wormtail was weak and I think Sirius is arrogant and also smart and cunning enough to use something like that for good, but I also think he was very mad at the time during POA and so downplayed the trust he must have had in Wormtail. Cause really as rash as Sirius is no one would rish their best friends lives if they didn't trust the person. And I can also see Wormtail being afraid of Sirius from the start because he's a black and that definitely wouldn't set them off to a good start.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:50 PM
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Yea i saw lol - i was like hold no this is about Peter
Sirius definatley thought of wormtail as a true friend He even says in POA that he if it was peter in james' position and himself (sirius) in Peters then he would have died rather than betray a friend. So he definatley considered him friend enough to sacrrifice his life for his safety. They probably definatley had a tension-filled relationship, because I can see sirius getting irritated with him on a regular basis. I can see Sirius telling him to stop following them around like a lost puppy and start acting like a part of the group, i can also see him arguing with him to stand up for himself every now and then rather than hide behind them. Sirius propbably played on peter's weakness too he probably teased him for it a lot which probably made the friendship even more tense. Wormtail probably was afraid of sirius because of his background and this probably further annoyed sirius and made him trust him less or at least be wary of him.

I love these discussions too
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