Harry Potter - HBP Chapter Discussion: Chapters 26-28. BEWARE SPOILERS ALLOWED

*ADARA* · 07-18-2005, 04:21 PM

Discuss HBP Chapters 26, 27, & 28 here please

HaveALittleFaith · 07-18-2005, 06:25 PM

The Cave was such an intense chapter. I think Harry having to force Dumbledore to drink the poison was the worst thing we've seen in the books so far. Harry clearly struggled doing it, but he managed to do what he knew he had to do. Dumbledore taught him so much through this. It was frightening to see Dumbledore so weakened and human.

I was surprised when Dumbledore froze Harry so that he couldn't leave and was there when Draco confronted him. I'm still not quite sure why he did so, but I know Dumbledore would have had his reasons. I loved how he almost talked Draco back to the good side. I hated to see Dumbledore so weak throughout this scene though. My heart broke when he pleaded with Snape right before he was killed.

Harry chasing after Snape reminded me of him chasing Bellatrix after she killed Sirius. I loved how Harry was thinking "not Hagrid...not Hagrid too" when he saw the Death Eaters go by him. Hagrid's yelling at the Death Eaters that Fang was still in his house when they set it on fire actually made me laugh despite my shock during this scene. Like the Death Eaters would care his dog was in there.

Snape reacted very violently to being called a coward. Very interesting.

But really nothing broke my heart more than Hagrid being told Dumbledore was dead. Hagrid who loved Dumbledore so much...respected him for everything he had done for him...threatened anyway who spoke ill of him. His disbelief at what Harry was trying to tell him was so in character.

So Dumbledore died because of a fake Horcrux. That's terrible, but it's going to be Harry's motivation. Despite that, he learned so much from going after it that I think it will do more good in the end than bad.

nesscafe · 07-18-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaveALittleFaith

[So Dumbledore died because of a fake Horcrux. That's terrible, but it's going to be Harry's motivation. Despite that, he learned so much from going after it that I think it will do more good in the end than bad.

That's one way to think of it. I personally, think Dumbledore died to protect Draco from becoming a murder. I think that Dumbledore knew he was going to die soon and was getting his affairs in order throughout the whole book (ala giving Harry as much information about Voldemort as possible before they went looking for the Horcrux). I think Dumbledore was begging Snape to kill him, not to spare his life. I think he wanted Snape to do it to spare Draco what was left of his innocence. I think the theories that Hagrid heard DD and Snape arguing about Snape doing the deed are spot on.

HaveALittleFaith · 07-18-2005, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nesscafe

That's one way to think of it. I personally, think Dumbledore died to protect Draco from becoming a murder. I think that Dumbledore knew he was going to die soon and was getting his affairs in order throughout the whole book (ala giving Harry as much information about Voldemort as possible before they went looking for the Horcrux). I think Dumbledore was begging Snape to kill him, not to spare his life. I think he wanted Snape to do it to spare Draco what was left of his innocence. I think the theories that Hagrid heard DD and Snape arguing about Snape doing the deed are spot on.

I haven't quite worked out whether I think Snape is really evil or not, or if Dumbledore and him had planned something that, but what I meant was Dumbledore died because he drank the poison and was so weak that he could be cornered and finished off like that. Ultimately it goes back to the Horcrux and the poison, since if Dumbledore hadn't of left the castle that night the Death Eaters wouldn't have gotten in anyway.

EphramIsHot · 07-18-2005, 08:59 PM

I kept tossing back and forth in my mind throughout the entire book which side Snape was on... but I think I had myself convinced that he was on the good side. It was the biggest blow ever to see him kill Dumbledore like that... and in such cold blood, too. I shouted ''NO!'' when Snape said ''Avada Kedavra'' and my parents came running up to my room to see what was wrong. They couldn't figure out why I was crying... and then my mom saw me reading HBP. She just took my dad's arm, went ''She's fine, let her be'' and they left. I actually thought I was going to toss my cookies. I know it sounds ridiculously dramatic (I mean, he was only a character!) but still. I can hardly bear the thought that Dumbledore as a person won't be in the next book.

ToFuJello · 07-18-2005, 09:08 PM

I know what you mean...as soon as I read that Dumbledore died I had to shut the book. I was like maybe if I open it up again I'll ead something different. Thought I never got into tears, my eyes were defiantly watery reading the aftermath of it all.

How did Dumbledore's body reach the ground, was he lifted up when the curse hit him and just fell out of the astronomy tower?

As for Snape...throughout the whole book I was like Snape is good, Snape is good right? But after this in no way will I ever think Snape is good, well unless JK writes otherwise...but until then I find Snape no way a good guy.

Age-a-licious · 07-18-2005, 09:41 PM

I never liked Snape. Never did at all. I don't care if he turns out to be good in the end. I still do NOT like him.

I, too, thought that scene with Hagrid telling the death eaters that his dog was inside was remarkably funny. Even near death, Hagrid loves him some animals.

With Dumbledore gone, I wonder what's going to happen with Hogwarts? Who'll take over? I hope it's Professor G. I loved how when she was fighting that other lady, she goes: "TAKE THAT!"

nesscafe · 07-19-2005, 12:27 AM

Reasons why I still believe in Snape's being a snarky b@stard, but on the right side.

DD never said that Snape saying he felt remorse for his actions was his ONLY reason for trusting him.
HbP – The Seer Overheard pg 549
“But he’s a very good Occlumens, isn’t he, sir?” said Harry, whose voice was shaking with the effort of keep it steady. “And isn’t Voldemort convinced that Snape’s on his side, even now? Professor… how can you be sure Snape’s on our side?”

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, “I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.”

DD knows he’s going to die that night.
DD to Harry when Harry wanted to use his blood instead of DD’s to open the wall of the cave.
HbP – The Cave pg 560
“But your blood is worth more than mine.”

HbP – The Cave pg 569
“I’m sorry, Harry; I should have said, he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island,” Dumbledore corrected himself.

HbP – The Cave pg 569
Their eyes met over the basin, each pale face lit with that strange, green light. Harry did not speak. Was this why he had been invited along – so that he could force-feed Dumbledore a potion that might cause him unendurable pain?

HbP – The Cave pg 570
“Why can’t I drink the potion instead?” asked Harry desperately.
“Because I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable,” said Dumbledore.

Harry’s reaction for force-feeding Dumbledore the potion vs. Snape’s reaction to killing Dumbledore
HbP – The Cave pg 571
Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbldore’s mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside.

The Lightning-Struck Tower pg 595
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

Notice how they both have the same reaction to hurting someone they both love so much.
When Harry was fighting Snape, he didn't fight back AND was giving him DADA lessons!
HbP – The Lightning-Struck Tower pg 602
“No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter!” he shouted over the rushing of the flames, Hagrid’s yells, and the wild yelping of the trapped Fang. “You haven’t got the nerve or the ability-“

HbP - The Lightning-Struck Tower pg 602
“Fight back!” Harry screamed at him.

Pg 603
“Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!” sneered Snape, deflecting the curse once more.

HbP - Flight of the Prince pg 604
If you recall the only thing that made Snape lash out at Harry was when he called Snape a coward the second time for killing DD. Snape was then described as looking "suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind him" Then it says "he slashed at the air" and "Harry felt a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the face and he was slammed backward into the ground."

Another point that DD knew he was going to die was that he knew that the DADA position was cursed, but had finally given the position to Snape.

Pure-HP · 07-19-2005, 04:45 AM

I believe that Dumbledore knew that he was dieing, he indicated as much throughout the book; along with unmodestly praising himself repeatedly. I also think that Hagrid hearing them (Snape and Dumbledore) arguing was important; we know Jo well enough to know that she does not add small things just for the fun of it. I also think that Draco Malfoy is not evil and that he didn't have a choice in what happened. Draco wanted to save himself and his mother but he was not willing to kill Dumbledore for it.
I believe that Dumbledore trusts Snape so much because as with the situation with Draco and his plan, Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry from harm. If Dumbledore knew he was going to die by the end of the year, he would obviously given the cursed DADA postion to Snape finally so that he would be forced to leave by the end of the year and by Snape being the one who killed Dumbledore, the Death Eaters would be forced to believe that Snape was still one of them. This would ensure that Snape is there when it comes time for Harry to fight Voldemort one last time.
Dumbledore has taught Harry everything he needs to know. Now Harry has to do it alone. (I just feel sorry for us Harry/Ginny shippers)

EphramIsHot · 07-19-2005, 05:40 AM

nesscafe, very interesting points! I still believe that Snape is on the dark side, but, whether intentionally or not, he was definitely giving Harry pointers during their mini-battle. If he doesn't learn to close his mind, Voldemort is going to know what he's going to do before he does it. I just have to ask myself where Harry is going to correctly learn Occlumency, now that Snape and Dumbledore are gone...

jordan_thewizard · 07-19-2005, 08:42 AM

I read the spoilers, so I knew Dumbledore was going to die, I just never thought it was Snape who was going to kill him. I thought it would of been Voldemort.

nesscafe · 07-19-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EphramIsHot

nesscafe, very interesting points! I still believe that Snape is on the dark side, but, whether intentionally or not, he was definitely giving Harry pointers during their mini-battle. If he doesn't learn to close his mind, Voldemort is going to know what he's going to do before he does it. I just have to ask myself where Harry is going to correctly learn Occlumency, now that Snape and Dumbledore are gone...

I promise that I'm not believing in Sevie just because I love Alan Rickman and Snape is my favorite HP character. The evidence is there supporting his true loyalties. Aside from what I've already posted think about these things. J.K. has repeatedly had Harry not trust Snape, yet until this book Snape's actions have always proved that he was protecting Harry or DD's cause.

Why would DD just trust Snape on his word? He never trusted Riddle on his word. In fact, DD could sense even after he was the more powerful Voldemort, that he was up to no good, yet we are to believe that DD would never sense the bad intentions of Snape? I think not! DD knew something else about Severus's past. There is another reason for his trust.

Also, DD said repeatedly that he knew Draco was trying to kill him. It makes complete sense for DD to spend the whole book putting his affairs in order and let Snape have the DADA job for his one last year as a teacher if he knew Snape had made a vow to make sure Voldemort's plan for DD to die was successful. If they were agruing about Snape NOT wanting to go on w/ the charade of being a spy anymore then it makes perfect sense for DD to beg Sevie to kill him instead of Draco. Remember, DD didn't beg his life to be spared from Draco or the 4 Death Eaters eager to do the job.

Well, if you still think Snape is a super Death Eather, we will just have to agree to disagree. You will be pleasantly surprised after reading book 7 when Snape is discovered to be on DD's side after all.

XoCmMoX · 07-19-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EphramIsHot

I kept tossing back and forth in my mind throughout the entire book which side Snape was on... but I think I had myself convinced that he was on the good side. It was the biggest blow ever to see him kill Dumbledore like that... and in such cold blood, too. I shouted ''NO!'' when Snape said ''Avada Kedavra'' and my parents came running up to my room to see what was wrong. They couldn't figure out why I was crying... and then my mom saw me reading HBP. She just took my dad's arm, went ''She's fine, let her be'' and they left. I actually thought I was going to toss my cookies. I know it sounds ridiculously dramatic (I mean, he was only a character!) but still. I can hardly bear the thought that Dumbledore as a person won't be in the next book.

ditto except i didn't shout no, i couldn't speak and i was like sobbing and i havent really been able to get over it still

i will never forgive snape no matter what happens in the next book and I'm glad Harry feels the same way

also.. i wonder if Harry could have conversations with the headmaster portrait of Dumbledore.. because I refuse to believe Dumbledore won't still play a key partin the next book...

i also like some people really hope they go to hogwarts for at least a portion of the book.. it's also going to be weird without Quidditch and just.. everything

FehryCandy · 07-19-2005, 11:30 PM

I for one still trust Snape, and will not be completely convinced he's evil until the end of book 7. Snape's anger over being called a coward shows his total frustration of everyone's preconcieved notion of who he is. Since(I will not say if) Snape is a good guy killing DD must have taken so much strength and bravery. To do something like that and not be able to tell anybody (Harry, the Order, the good guys) that this is what DD requested must be a great burden.
And Malfoy, I'm not going to blame Malfoy on any of this because in reality he's just a misquided scared little boy who thinks he's doing the right thing. Hell he had Moaning Myrtle as a confidant! He was crying with her in the bathroom! I feel nothing but pity for Malfoy.
On a slightly different note REB is frikin Regulous Black! duh JK!

ps_dreamer · 07-19-2005, 11:56 PM

Wow. I just finished HBP this morning.

OMG- I did not expect Dumbledore to die! As I read the story, I kinda hope that Dumbledore's death was a fake, and that he & Snape planned it right from the beginning. Ah well, I still hope it is. However unlikely that maybe. And now that I've come to think of it, it's quite possible that Dumbledore knew beforehand that he was going to die. That's why he's been passing on the info on Voldemort to Harry. And maybe he already was going to die- hinted from his blackened hand? BTW- we never really get a whole story on what happened to his hand, did we?

As for Snape, his loyalty is once again still in question. But I think he's on the good side but pretending to be a double agent for Voldemort. Dumbledore has a good intuition about people. And Snape must really put himself into the dark side in order to make Voldemort believe that he's on the side.

As for the next book, it'd be really weird not having Harry, Ron & Hermione being in Hogwarts. And Harry & Ginny not being together?

He, of all people, should know if Voldemort attack the people close to Harry- then there's also Ron, Hermione, Hagrid...