AuntEverest

It seemed to me that Buffy wasn’t the only Jossverse character to have some kind of superior/inferior complex toward a friend or friends. Judging from past episodes in Seasons 2, 3, 4 and 5, I got the feeling that Wes harbored the same kind of feelings toward Gunn.

On one hand, Wes seemed to regard Gunn as an inferior, due to his own background – white, British and formally educated, in compare to Gunn, who is a young black man from the Los Angeles ghetto, with little formal education. Yet, on the other hand, due to his own inferiority complex, Wes seemed occasionally disturbed, whenever Gunn displayed signs of intelligence, or when Fred chose the latter over him in Season 3. The fact that Fred had preferred someone of Gunn’s background over him seemed very disturbing to Wes, and it seemed to have brought out his inferiority complex even further.

I wonder if that is why Wes felt no remorse for stabbing Gunn in “Shells”, after learning that the latter was responsible for allowing Illyria’s sarcophagus into the country and in the W&H offices. I got the feeling that he believed Gunn’s actions not only gave him the right to feel superior, but to act upon that superiority with violence.

~*Magical*~

You always seem to start threads that have broad statements and don't really explain where your point of view is coming from. So before I can really respond to this I need to ask you to give me examples from the show of how Wes ever acted like this. I never saw him think he was better than Gunn because of his upbringing and background being better or different than Gunn.

As far as Wes being "disturbed" by Fred choosing Gunn because of Gunn's background, I never saw that either. Unless I can't remember, and thats why I ask you to provide examples, the only time I saw him respond to G/F was in "Couplet"

That sure doesn't seem like Wes cared about G/F being together because of Gunn's background. It was more like he was dissapointed that Fred chose Gunn over him because she saw Wes as a brother.

Karbear3916

Jenn I agree I get confused by the thread titles to

Ashleigh

I always felt the exact opposite - that Gunn felt like he had a superiority complex over a lot of people, Wesley included.

JediBlastoise

i felt they were pretty tight with each other in season 2, especially when Angel fired the whole crew and it was just wes, gunn, and cordy. i mean, they made their own secret handshake!!!
but i guess they sorted drifted apart over the seasons, starting with the competition with each other over fred and going on from there.

AuntEverest

Does anyone remember what Lilah had once said to Wes about Fred and Charles? I don't remember the quote verbatim, but she said something about Fred preferring black. And Wes had the strangest expression on his face. Are you sure that Gunn's background had nothing to do with Wes' aversion to his romance with Fred?

JediBlastoise

i remember that quote! kinda....
She said something about how nothing's black and white, and how you mix it together you get gray, and no matter how much black you mix, you still get gray, and Fred prefers black, or soemthing like that..

~*Magical*~

I remember that scene too. Here it is..

That whole talk wasn't about a person's outside color. It was about exactly what they were saying, good and evil. Its an expression "black and white" how things can either be one way or another, good or evil, but with no inbetween. And Lilah was making the point that Wesley used to be "white" but he had been traveling on a dark path in the previous episodes. Mixing in a little "black" into his ... lets call it his soul. Lilah was saying that he started to do that and there was no going back now no matter how much good he did. He made that face you are claiming he made because he knew she was right. There was no going back to the Wesley before "Forgiving". The only comment about color as in race was her last remark. And that was just a little jab at Wesley because Fred was with Gunn at the moment. And Lilah being Lilah was able to make her quip and relate to Fred not choosing Wesley.

Atleast thats how I saw it..

sum1

I saw no sign that Wes was against Gunn on basis of race.

However, Gunn started out as a racist stereotype. The first black character to become a regular on a buffyverse show and he's a guy from a slum, with a criminal record, a gang and anger issues? Jeez.

And the racist stereotyping continued. He becomes muscle for the fang gang and is repeatedly made to feel that's all he is and that he lacks the brains of the others. And in season 5 he gets a "mental upgrade", which technically was just magically giving him lawyer skills, but sounded kinda like implying black people are stupid and need an intellect boost.

All in all, Gunn's character design always seemed racist to me. Particularly seeing as he was often made bland, as if they didn't want to bother spending the effort to give him personality and just had him in there as a token.

So I think it's the show design that's guilty of racism, not Wes.

peacecorps2006

I never thought of Gunn as a stereotypical character. He was from the ghetto and had a bad past. Yet, he stayed in the path of anger to help others. That is commendable. Gunn was a badass character. wesley and him were great friends. just watch the scene in the finale where they say goodbye to each other. Heartbreaking.

AuntEverest

And I don't see your Texas-gal-pal wearing that color. Come to think of it, she prefers black.


This was about Lilah exposing Wes' feelings about Fred preferring Charles. Check out his reaction to this last comment.

~*Magical*~

I saw his reaction and it was in response to what she said about him not ever being able to go back to what he was before. And because he knew that Fred had not chosen him. You are using one word, "black", that was at the end of Lilah's long tirade against him as a reason to basically call Wesley a racist and a hater of Gunn because of his color. I don't understand the reasoning behind this.