[fresley4ever]

In my attempt to help with the board I decided to finish off the discussion threads.

This season was probably my favorite season of Angel. What did everyone else think? I know one of the things I really didn't like was what they did with Cordelia.

[lunas_borednow]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?
2. How did you feel about seeing Angelus again? How about seeing Faith again?
3. What do you think this season would have been like if Charisma hadn't been pregnant?
4. Did you like Connor more or less this season?
5. What do you think of the season as a whole?
6. What did you think of the romance this season?
7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why?
8. Who's character journey did you like the most?

[fresley4ever]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?

Do I have to go through all of this? This takes forever... Okay ummm....

Supersymmetry - Evil Fred and Wes was just cool.
Spin The Bottle - Return of dorky Wesley.
Apocalypse Nowish - Wesley and his shotgun... Sexy.
Soulless - Fred/Wes kissing.
Calvary - Fred and Gunn breakup.
Salvage - Faith returns.
Release - A cool battle between Faith and Angelus.
Players - Yes Gunn is really broken up about not being with Fred...
The Magic Bullet - Fred makes a stand against her friends and saves them.
Home - Wesley die hards his way to try and save Lilah.

The only one I really didn't care for was Awakening... It just wasn't a good eps.

2. How did you feel about seeing Angelus again? How about seeing Faith again?

I love both reappearances. I like the reactions Faith has to the new Wesley.

3. What do you think this season would have been like if Charisma hadn't been pregnant?

Yes because I think the evil Cordy could have been played out so much better if she hadn't been.

4. Did you like Connor more or less this season?

Less. He was still the same brat from season three.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole?

I really liked the season despite some of the strange things that happened.

6. What did you think of the romance this season?

I didn't care for any of it. Unless you count the Fred/Wes stuff which wasn't really a romance in that season.

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why?

Evil Cordy, I think it could have been done better.

8. Who's character journey did you like the most?

Wesley's of course. He changed so much from season three. I also really enjoyed Fred because she got some of her confidence back.

[~*Echo*~]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? It's hard to pick out individual episodes from this season because they were all so intertwined, but Deep Down is one of my favorite Ats episodes ever, because of the cool, creepy dream stuff, seeing the Gunn/Fred/Connor pseudofamily that had formed over the summer, and watching Wes be badass with his relationship with Lilah, his rescue of Angel, and the reveal of Justine in his closet. Spin the Bottle, Habeas Corpses, Orpheus, and Players also rank highly for me. Least favorites are probably Supersymmetry because Fred isn't one of my favorite characters and I've never gotten very into the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle, and Sacrifice, because watching the gang run around the sewers for an entire episode just wasn't very interesting to me.

2. How did you feel about seeing Angelus again? How about seeing Faith again? I loved seeing Faith again. Her Ats season 4 appearances are some of my favorite stuff for her, and I particularly liked seeing the development of her relationships with Angel and Wes, not to mention her laying down the law on Connor. I liked seeing Angelus again too, although not as much as Faith.

3. What do you think this season would have been like if Charisma hadn't been pregnant? Well, the Jasmine arc probably would have played out very differently, with Cordy remaining the big bad instead of Jasmine stepping in. I'm guessing the Cordy/Connor relationship would still have happened in some form, with Cordy manipulating Connor into being her minion/second in command, but we might have been spared the squicky ConCord sex if the writers hadn't needed to get Cordy pregnant. I also wonder how the season would have ended if it had been Cordy instead of Jasmine as the big bad at the end of the season; how would they have resolved the arc? I can't see the writers having Connor bash her head in like he did with Jasmine, and I imagine Angel would have been quite a bit more conflicted about defeating her.

4. Did you like Connor more or less this season? I probably liked him less at points, but I felt for him just as much, if not more. He was certainly unlikeable, and he made tons of bad choices, but he was also a victim of Cordy's manipulation (and to some extent, Holtz's manipulation throughout his childhood as well) in many ways. He was trying so hard to do the right things, he just failed miserably. Really miserably.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? I liked it; I think it all comes together really nicely, and it's really compelling as a season-long story. Unfortunately, there aren't as many fun moments showing the characters' relationships and friendships as in previous seasons, and Cordy being taken over by Jasmine is one of the more depressing endings for a generally awesome character, but overall, I liked that the show took some risks and chose to tell a really big story with high week-to-week payoffs.

6. What did you think of the romance this season? Lets see, we had Wes/Lilah, more Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle, Cordy/Connor, and a hint of Gunn/Gwen. Looking at those developments, I guess I'm pretty mixed. I liked Wes/Lilah and Gunn/Gwen (oh, how I wish that pairing hadn't been dropped after one episode), but didn't care much about the triangle, although I found it less painful in this season than it was in season 3. And Cordy/Connor . . . come on, I don't think there's anyone on earth who actually liked Cordy/Connor, even before she was revealed to be totally evil. The whole thing was weird and gross, but it did ultimately have a purpose in increasing Cordy's manipulation of Connor and leading to the birth of Jasmine, so I guess I grudgingly accept it as a necessary evil. Still, ugh.

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? Um, maybe the aforementioned Connor/Cordy? Although, I don't know exactly how I'd fix it. If only CC hadn't gotten pregnant, I would have liked to see her stay the big bad rather than giving birth to Jasmine, which would have cut out the need for Connor/Cordy to be consummated (how's that for alliteration?) and raised the emotional stakes for the gang when they were battling her at the end of the season and maybe allowed for a happier resolution for her character (if they found some way to defeat Jasmine without destroying Cordy). So I'm not sure how it would have been changed given the behind-the-scenes logistics, but that's what I would have liked to change.

8. Who's character journey did you like the most? Well, Connor's was compelling and heartbreaking but also depressing and tragic to me, so I don't know if 'liked' is the right word for his journey, although I thought it was well done. And most of the other characters didn't have much time to have big journeys with the short span of time that the season took place over and all of the action taking place. I think I actually enjoyed the journeys of some of the recurring characters the most, like seeing Lilah in an actual relationship and watching her soften while still remaining a snarky, self-interested bad guy, or watching Faith finally get to become a leader and show herself to be a capable slayer on her own, outside of Buffy's shadow.

[kitsune]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? Spin the Bottle for the obvious reasons, Slouching Towards Bethlehem because it was so Cordy centric, and Inside Out because of the moral choices it brought to light that we hadn't seen since S2. My least favorite are pretty much everything not mentioned here.

2. How did you feel about seeing Angelus again? How about seeing Faith again? Angelus was not how I remembered him on BtVS or in the first season of AtS. It was great to have Faith back, but I would've liked to see some Cordy/Faith interaction and not having Connor going all googly eyed (because of course he would be googley eyed over a slayer, he's Angel's son, ).

3. What do you think this season would have been like if Charisma hadn't been pregnant? 100% better. From what I understand it was in the works to have Cordelia be evil all along, but she would be physically fit enough for fight scenes and there would've been a big showdown between her and Angel in the finale. I would've liked to see her conspiring with W&H and I can totally see this happening because of her new demonic abilities along with her visions (which I think W&H could've developed into a storyline of being able to predict the future to certain extent).

I'm guessing the Cordy/Connor relationship would still have happened in some form, with Cordy manipulating Connor into being her minion/second in command, but we might have been spared the squicky ConCord sex if the writers hadn't needed to get Cordy pregnant.

I think this would be incorporated as well. If Cordy had been working with W&H, I can see Wesley playing a role (although still working for the right team) in her arc. Jasmine would not have happened and they would also have given a different explaination as to why she was a bad guy, instead of the sad excuse we get in S4.

4. Did you like Connor more or less this season? Pretty much the same as the previous season? Naive and consistent in his bad choices. No character growth, only regression. After Inside Out I sympathized with him a lot more because that was the point of no return, but I would've liked to see him be bigger than Cordy's manipulation in the end. I love him in S5 and it's a shame we never got to see that side of him while he was in S4.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? It was terrible. I know some people enjoyed it and consider it their favorite season. It's definitely a love/hate season. I thought the writing was sloppy and instead of focusing on the characters at this critical time in their lives, they focused heavily on trying to weave an intricate plot arc - which, in the end, still looked like last minute writing.

6. What did you think of the romance this season? AWFUL. Every. SINGLE. Pairing. Wes/Fred, Gunn/Fred, Cordy/Angel, Connor/Cordy. Just ugh. I hated it all. Every romance that transpired in this season was a) destroying friendships or b) a catalyst for a storyline further down the line.

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? I would not have written Charisma's pregnany in. I would've said 'See ya next year.' and brought her back in S5 to finish the show. I would also have Connor grow in a better direction, working with the team, instead of against it. I would've had Wesley get over his school girl crush for Fred, or at least respected the her enough to stay out of her current affairs until Fred got the balls to break it off with Gunn. I would've added Gwen to the cast as well.

8. Who's character journey did you like the most? Nobody had a good journey in this series. Nobody accomplished anything good. The relationships that were built in three years were just thrown to trash, and the possibilities of new relationships were ripped to shreds. It was nice to see Faith so secure in her choice to be on the good side and actually fighting for it. While I don't like the direction tey decided to go in with Connor's character, there were some episodes that stood out to me as superb writing. If there's one thing the AtS writing staff can do it's writing a character's descent into darkness (although this apparently doesn't apply to Cordelia).

[strawberrypie]

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why? Deep down is one of my favorite Ats episodes ever, so I'm going with that one. It was great seeing Wes trying to find Angel, Fred and Gunn adjusting to being the only ones in charge, and Angel's dreams/nightmares were very interesting and insightful. Spin the Bottle is also one of my all time favorites, just great all around.
My least favorites would have to be Ground State and The House Always Wins, they just don't stand out to me.

2. How did you feel about seeing Angelus again? How about seeing Faith again? It was really fun seeing the interaction between Angelus and the gang, especially with Wes. I don't like Faith so I didn't care much for her, though she was more likable to me than she was on BtVS.

3. What do you think this season would have been like if Charisma hadn't been pregnant? Probably more exciting and less disgusting on the Cordy/Connor front. And I'm sure we would've seen a lot more of Cordy.

4. Did you like Connor more or less this season? I only liked Connor in Peace Out when he's talking to Cordy 'cause I really felt for him, and then in S5.

5. What do you think of the season as a whole? I found it fun to watch when it first aired. Looking back, sure, there are some things that could've been done differently, but as a whole it's fun to watch.

6. What did you think of the romance this season? The only romance I was interested in watching was the dynamic between Wes/Fred/Gunn. Those three characters were so conflicted and trying to figure things out, and then Angelus creating more friction between them was interesting.

7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? More Cordy towards the end.

8. Who's character journey did you like the most? Wes, of course. In the beginning of the season he's trying to find his place again, and looking into his dark side with Lilah, but later on he realizes what team he wants to play for.

[fresley4ever]

strawberrypie

[lunas_borednow]

*decides to finally answer her own questions...

1. What are some of your favorite and least favorite episodes? Why?
Favorites:
Supersymmetry- Fred... oh wonderful dark Fred... and Wesley and Fred with beer!
Spin The Bottle- What wasn't to love? Funny episode, dorky Wesley getting turned on by Fred discribing getting probed by aliens, Lorn narrating, shiny demons and a creepy creepy ending!
Soulless- Evil smoochies, Evil episode, Gunn and Wesley finally just have that smack down that really was building for a whole year at this point. And did I mention evil smoochies?
Calvary- Pissed off Fred... and well the revel of Cordy was just cool!
The Whole Faith arc for well Faith... though Willow coming in in Orpheus... I kinda wish super witch hadn't saved the day...

Lest favorite:
Awakening ... it was just so corny. I was happy with the smile at the end though.
Home ... I really liked parts of it, but the Connor stuff was so over the top I couldn't take it...

... huh... that's about it...

2. How did you feel about seeing Angelus again?
Loved seeing Angelus again... I like him better then Angel... his not so... hypocritical... How about seeing Faith again? I loved seeing Faith again!
3. What do you think this season would have been like if Charisma hadn't been pregnant? I would have liked it better I think, because this season was really good in a lot of ways, but something was off, and I think it was this...
4. Did you like Connor more or less this season? Less... in Season 3 I felt sorry for him, by season 4 I just didn't anymore... He should have gotten it and he never did.
5. What do you think of the season as a whole? As I said something was off. I can't name really that much of it I didn't like, but there was something off in it's big picture, not in the little stuff, the little stuff was great, except over idolizing Cordelia and pounding our heads with how poor Connor has suffered... but that alone wasn't enough... just something was off.
6. What did you think of the romance this season? I liked the Fred/Wes stuff... ummm... and I did like that Fred and Gunn broke up, I only wish it had happened faster, those two were never a good couple, IMNHO...
7. If you could change one thing about this season, what would it be and why? As someone said before... I wouldn't have written in Cordy's pregnancy...
8. Who's character journey did you like the most? Fred's, I felt she really got on her feet this season... Wesley's was the best last season with his hardening.

[~*Echo*~]

Originally Posted by quicksand (View Post) 5. What do you think of the season as a whole? It was terrible. I know some people enjoyed it and consider it their favorite season. It's definitely a love/hate season. I thought the writing was sloppy and instead of focusing on the characters at this critical time in their lives, they focused heavily on trying to weave an intricate plot arc - which, in the end, still looked like last minute writing.

I think you're definitely right about the love/hate thing. I remember shortly after it finished airing, and before season 5 started, I ranked season 4 at the bottom of my list of seasons, because I felt like it was kind of all flash and no substance, with all of the world-ending evil type stuff taking over the week-to-week adventures of Angel Investigations. I've come to like it a lot more, and it's my second favorite season now (after season 2), but I can see why opinions are so divided on it. It completely threw itself into a big, complicated, fairly depressing apocalyptic story pretty much from Habeas Corpses onward, and I myself go back and forth on how satisfying I find it, so I can see both sides.

[fresley4ever]

I disliked three more. I hated the arc completely and the ruining of Cordelia.

[lunas_borednow]

Originally Posted by ~*Echo*~ (View Post) I think you're definitely right about the love/hate thing. I remember shortly after it finished airing, and before season 5 started, I ranked season 4 at the bottom of my list of seasons, because I felt like it was kind of all flash and no substance, with all of the world-ending evil type stuff taking over the week-to-week adventures of Angel Investigations. I've come to like it a lot more, and it's my second favorite season now (after season 2), but I can see why opinions are so divided on it. It completely threw itself into a big, complicated, fairly depressing apocalyptic story pretty much from Habeas Corpses onward, and I myself go back and forth on how satisfying I find it, so I can see both sides.

I can totally understand that... as you can see from my mixed review. It felt like a mixture of brilliance and soap opera...

[fresley4ever]

As I said I really liked Wesley's growth so perhaps that is the reason I liked the season so much.

[lunas_borednow]

Weird that you don't like season 3 because that's where the growth really happened... it's just in season 4 that we saw the result of all that growth...

[fresley4ever]

Actually Wesley's part in three I liked. What I didn't like the the overall arc, demon Cordelia, Connor, and Angel being an a hole.

[fresley4ever]

Damn fanforum and not being able to delete double posts!!!