April7739

Yeah, I think if he goes out of his way to make Echo sympathetic, it will backfire big time, and I have to admit, I won’t respond well to it, either. I just have a lot of issues with her character (that have existed since season 3) that I feel are never going to be addressed.

But I do agree that if we get some scenes of her and Clarke that aren’t about Bellamy, it could be . . . okay.

kiss the wind

I'd not respond well to Clarke/Echo scenes, but if they work together as far as like, solving problems or in group scenes, then... maybe. I didn't respond well at all in 5x12, and I can't see myself enjoying them any time soon. I think it would feel very forced and unnatural (IMO). I do understand why you'd like that, though, Becks. I think my response would be the nature of the scene (context and also what they talk about).

Clarke/Gina would have been so cute, honestly. I wish they had a scene at least. Or that we got more of Gina. Oh well, that's what fanfic is for.

destroyer of worlds

I'm not sold on the idea of Clarke/Echo being friends, after Echo just tried killing her recently. Even knowing how much Bellamy would not be happy if he found out.

April7739

Pretty much all of this.

a little chaos

I'm the odd man out when it comes to Echo on this board

Cause I love Echo and Clarke, I would obviously enjoy scenes between them, as long as they're not about Bellamy. I'd like to see Echo step outside of Bellamy's shadow and not be making decisions based on him, it kind of feels like she doesn't know right from wrong without him being there, holding her hand and I can admit this about her. I'd like to see her build bridges with Clarke and Octavia because thats the right thing to do and not because she thinks it'll make Bellamy happy.

As for her trying to kill Clarke, most of the characters on this show have tried to kill each other or endangered each others lives in some way, Clarke has threatend Octavia's life on 3 occasions (TonDC, the Bunker and "we're gonna take her out") Murphy and Bellamy hung each other, Octavia threw Bellamy in a pit, Murphy disabled Raven, Clarke left Bellamy to die. All characters on this show have done crappy things to each other, yet all these other relationships get a pass, why shouldn't Becho? why shouldn't Echo?

April7739

My issue with Becho and the reason why I have a hard time letting go of the past is because it involved so much betrayal right from the start. Contrary to what she said, I don’t think they found each other in a cage. They met there, and then she proceeded to betray him, get his girlfriend killed, almost kill Octavia twice, hold a knife to his throat and Clarke’s throat . . . there just isn’t a foundation there for me to buy into the ship. And Echo as an individual . . . just poor writing, I feel. That decision to redeem her over the time jump and show nothing of that process is one of the most quizzical decisions of the entire series to me.

But I do agree that she would benefit from some storylines completely separate from Bellamy. Unfortunately, I feel that’s what we needed from her in season 5 and just didn’t get, and now it’s going to be too late for a lot of fans, including me, I can admit. Then again, I’ve never liked her, so if things had gone differently,in season 5, I might still feel the same. Who even knows?

destroyer of worlds

I get what you're saying, Becks but my issue with Echo is that she literally did that so very recently. Yes, Clarke left Bellamy to die in the pit (which was a stupid *** writing choice BTW) but that is different from actively trying to kill someone that you know your boyfriend loves/cares about, IMO. Even regardless of what Clarke tried to do, I doubt that Bellamy would want any harm to come to Clarke because of him.

And I agree with what April said, if they had tried to establish her as a character on her own FIRST, that might have worked. Give her the damn redemption and show her growing over time, like they did with Emori ... instead of trying to erase all her ****ty actions by doing the time jump and suddenly, all is forgiven. But alas, I feel like it's too late because she's shoehorned as the former antagonist slash Bellamy's girlfriend.

April7739

Bellamy would never want any harm to come to Clarke, I agree.

destroyer of worlds

Exactly. And his girlfriend was ready to choke her to death. (just like he almost did, 6 years ago. ~Irony.)

April7739

I do think some of that may go back to what Becks said, though, how Echo doesn’t seem to be able to distinguish right from wrong very well when Bellamy’s not around. Like saying they had to kill Shaw, betraying Raven, nearly killing Clarke and leaving Madi without a mother again . . . I don’t know whether to chalk that up to inconsistent writing or deliberate character design.

a little chaos

You can take the spy out of Azgeda, but you can't take Azgeda out the spy I like that they haven't made Echo a Mary sue, IMO she's grown as a person but is still very consistent with who she has always been. Yeah she betrayed Raven's trust, but all characters do that, Bellamy did that to Clarke, Clarke did that to Bellamy. Kane did that the whole season. Plus Echo had no loyalties to Shaw, she had a job to do to protect her family, and Echo is the type of person who cares more about the duty to her people than being liked and she WILL play dirty. She's a Damon Salvatore type character.

The only thing Echo did that I ddin't like was leave Murphy behind in the finale. Hopefully we will learn Echo's backstory in S6 and learn all about growing up as ice nation and the harshness of that reality cause judging on Roan/Nia's relationship there was no room for sentiment in that clan. Not saying it'll change anyone's views on Echo, I think that is pretty cemented at this point but I'll take anything that'll help the character.

April7739

I agree, I think views are pretty set in stone, and for that reason, I can’t say that I care to know any more about her. But I do think that perhaps exploring her backstory more in season 5, rather than putting her with Bellamy, would have helped audience members warm up to her. Maybe even me.

I think one of the problems I have is that I do feel like the show is trying to Mary Sue her and absolve her past actions, but I don’t think she actually is a Mary Sue because I find a lot of things about her unlikable and wrong. So I feel like the show is trying to tell me that she’s awesome now, but I feel like they’re forcing it on me rather than just allowing me to dislike her. Does that make sense?

How did you feel about the Raven/Echo friendship this season, Becks? Did you get invested in that?

kiss the wind

Oh, I didn’t even realized this is something I think, too. You said it perfectly. I think sometimes it’s okay to let characters be bad/villains. You don’t have to try and make them into “good” people.


I’d say that Roan was able to balance his duties as king with still being a morally strong character, not necessarily a “good” character. So even if semiment wasn’t allowed in Ice Nation, doesn’t give Echo an excuse).

April7739

Roan was an awesome character. I miss him.

I agree, Amelia, sometimes the show pushes a little too hard with its “there are no good guys” mentality and it ends up feeling forced. One of the things that I actually appreciated about McCreary is that he was just straight up bad. No redemption. He was just a villain with consistent writing behind him. I mean, I’m glad he’s gone, but for a season, it worked having him there as an antagonist.

destroyer of worlds

I absolutely agree with this. And that is the issue I have with Echo ... like April said, it feels almost like TPTB is trying to force viewers to like her now ... without literally doing any of the work to show us how she's grown, since we last saw her. Either let her be the villian or show us how we're supposed to find some redeeming qualities in her, not somewhere in between. And as we've discussed before, it was probably for the best if that was done through her as an individual character rather than shoehorning in her redemption arc via Bellamy.