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Old 05-13-2017, 06:30 AM
  #31
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It's confusing but Savitar also needs for some things to change unless he plans on reentering the loop and get stuck in the Speed Force.
true but then it makes no sense to not kill tracy when she was two feet from him.

yeah, yeah, he saved killer frost. given that cisco was temporarily incapacitated and barry's been no match for him 1 x 1.... he could have easily quickly killed tracy and then snatched up killer frost. not to mention... it also seemed like he was watching that whole battle go down and if he knew that killer frost would ultimately get knocked out by vibe... why not interfere earlier and prevent that from happening?

or why not go to the university before the team knew that they needed tracy in the first place and kill her then? because obviously he knew who she was and what she did to him in the future....


so the idea that he needs things to change i understand and generally accept... but at the same time... so much of what he seems to do indicates that he's trying to get the script to play out the same. because remember, unless he goes into the speed force, he never becomes savitar really either. since that's where he loses the rest of his mind, etc. so that's part of his origin story.

not to mention "when i controll all time" implies he thinks he has some way around that issue. which i hope and pray isn't completely dumb.

Quote:
I believe it plays into Savitar's plans.
I'm sure it does but i imagine it also fits into hers. and regardless of who it benefits more... cisco's not loosing his hands and i imagine worst case scenario caitlain emerges and spares him, etc... or something else, idk. but one way or the other, cisco's not losing his hands.

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My point is, even if Savitar wants to neutralize Vibe so that he can't find Iris, that doesn't prevent Killer Frost from doing it for her own personal reasons.
yes, but my point was that does nothing for big picture. without a broken barry from iris death... the rest of team flash would continue to be an issue. and since we saw the future where we first learned KF / Savitar did team up, that either lead to or occurred after Iris's death leading to emo barry to savitar, etc. so i just don't see how it turning into him wanting her to kidnap and not kill iris makes a ton of sense.... not that savitar existing because the guys were dicks to him makes much sense either.

not to mention... given KF's disdain for what she sees as her suffering while barry got his happy ending with iris "you ended up with iris, what do you care?" it makes no linear sense for her to to have that issue then turn around and think that savibarry would care anymore than original barry if he ended up with iris and happy and basically trade one slighted existence for another from her POV.

and i'm no longer as 100% certain, given her verbiage before finding out he had lost his memories...that KF is totally submissive to him either. he might be in control because his from the future but i don't think she sees it as him being the boss, etc... there was a little too much sass in that scene if that's what they're going for. and perhaps that will be her undoing with savitar, we shall see.


Quote:
I like that theory because I'm still struggling with the idea that any version of Barry would kill Iris.
i understand that and that is indeed a difficult pill to swallow, so to speak, the way they explained it is even worse. had it actually made sense their rationale and explanation there was a very tiny chance that i'd accept it - it does appear to be where we are at.

and while i can't put it past the writers.... that makes no sense.

savitar literally said he needed iris to die so he can be born. the entire logic of his existence is based around that. and i don't think there's enough logic when they came up with this crap for them to be like "lol... no, here's what is really going on"

again, won't totally put it past the writers / show. since zoom started out as a villain who wanted to kill barry, then he wanted his speed and wanted him to get stronger, then after getting his speed decided he needed barry's speed to race him to create his world destroying machine......

Quote:
From my perspective, that scenario doesn't strip Killer Frost of her agency any more than following Savitar's other orders did.
we're just going to have to disagree on that.
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Last edited by bonnie51; 05-13-2017 at 06:41 AM
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Old 05-14-2017, 01:59 AM
  #32
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Need to read all this
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:58 AM
  #33
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yes, but my point was that does nothing for big picture. without a broken barry from iris death... the rest of team flash would continue to be an issue. and since we saw the future where we first learned KF / Savitar did team up, that either lead to or occurred after Iris's death leading to emo barry to savitar, etc. so i just don't see how it turning into him wanting her to kidnap and not kill iris makes a ton of sense.... not that savitar existing because the guys were dicks to him makes much sense either.
The theory included Barry seeing Iris die. From his perspective, she'd be dead and gone. That way Barry could still be driven so far into the dark to create Savitar. The team would also be broken and not an issue anymore.

Anyway, this is pointless because a) Savitar will be defeated b) even if he does get Iris then he can't be Savitar. He can't be a God that feels no pain and be in love at the same time.

I apologize because this show is confusing enough. No reason for me to add a theory that has currently no basis in canon.

I just hope the writers will tie the loose ends and give both Savitar and Killer Frost a clear endgame.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:11 AM
  #34
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i see...

and yeah, it will all end up for the beter as far as hte characters are concerned.

savitar will be defeated, iris isn't going to die, cisco won't lose his hands, etc...



for some reason i feel like hR will bite the dust because of his face changing thing and savitar will kill "iris" but not realy iris......

a clear end game would be nice but i doubt it. given how they have butchered savitar's story since the "explanation" i expect it will be equally messed up. i don't really have any high hopes... i'm just waiting for either savitar to betray killer frost or for caitlain to pop out. or both.





--------------------------------------------------

and in reality....KF wasn't wrong in 3x09. which in theory would make more sense for her to stick around but i doubt that happens.


----------------------------------------------------

i have a feeling like captain cold and the rogues will be the season 4 villain as barry continues to create - in some ways - the problems rather than solving them. he really doesn't learn from his mistakes or decisions. i understand WHY he makes some of the decisions he does - but at the same time, learning from your past would be nice as well



---------------------------------------------------


it won't be iris and it shouldn't be - but i do think the show is getting to the point where having a main character die off might pump some life into the show. i don't buy the funeral set photos will actually end up really having been a "main" character. best bet is either HR posing as iris in disguise in which cause wells comes back, etc... or maybe if KF sticks around she kills off julian to complete the transformation or if they kill savitar, maybe they bury him but that would be a tad weird.
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Last edited by bonnie51; 05-15-2017 at 08:33 AM
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Old 05-16-2017, 12:05 PM
  #35
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well, from the sneak peak argus / lyla's involvement makes a ad more sense i
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:16 PM
  #36
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That would be nice but Captain Cold is dead unless somehow bringing him back for tonight's episode causes something related to time travel being the only explanation where it seems a S1 Legends Leonard, so the changing Leonard and the one that ends up sacrificing himself and becoming the Hero he didn't want to be but again they would have to get Wentworth to sign for a contract for it and believe its been very quiet without having any news on what he's doing

Plus already know it ain't a speedster finally that is the big baddie I was thinking KF
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:07 PM
  #37
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true, but that kind of stuff regarding a contract probably would be kept until the end of the season and the reveal of who they villain was going to be.

and yeah, the promo says that barry went back in time before he "died" so that's how he's alive, etc.


as for KF... i just don't see it. don't get me wrong, i'v been dying for KF - this version more than e2 - but i just don't see it them letting that happen. i think even if she is KF she'll be back at star labs before we know it, one way or the other...

and if captain cold is back... you don't really need two villains / characters using cold technology or cold powers on the same show. i know they have two or more speedsters but that's a little different in that one of them is the titular character of the show and the other is his adoptive brother and part of the first family of the show, so to speak
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:26 PM
  #38
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Figured so I have faith cause this season they've done remarkable with Wentworth unlike Legends

Well after they killed him on Legends they released that multi show contract right away and than they were hyping it up within SDCC ...

So I just hope they can get Wentworth and rather him on Flash than on LoT even if he wouldn't be with his best mate Dominic. Flash treats him better, just hope he doesn't hiatus from acting again
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Old 05-16-2017, 06:30 PM
  #39
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well, if the rogues are the big bad in season 4 then heat wave could make an appearance or come back too, etc...

and just... 3x22 was just..... meh.

iris isn' dead.
cisco's not losing his hands.
savitar's either dying or getting trapped.
etc, etc...


maybe its just me but if the show was trying to build to a crescendo before the finale or even this episode... for me at least, it did not succeed.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:18 PM
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Heat Wave he's on LoT and double duty would be hard
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:15 PM
  #41
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yeah but they could always write him off LoT... in theory, anyways
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:17 PM
  #42
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Was a hell of a cliffhanger LoT ended on I rather Wentworth be brought back on The Flash if they were to somehow make OUR Captain Cold alive again or use another Earth version cause Flash can write for him where LoT was a waste

Though opposite is for Mick LoT really did wonders for the character
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:08 AM
  #43
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and in reality....KF wasn't wrong in 3x09. which in theory would make more sense for her to stick around but i doubt that happens.
What do you mean?

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Plus already know it ain't a speedster finally that is the big baddie I was thinking KF
I was thinking about Killer Frost for the first half but she's already on her way of being redeemed

Doesn't Killer Frost team up with the Rogues in the comics?
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:41 AM
  #44
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What do you mean?
oh, just that when she said that barry didn't care what he screwed up because he ended up iris. in a lot of ways, that's been proven true to various degrees during the season. which makes sense from the show's pov given the importance of iris to barry and their relationship - and how it's her death alone that pushes barry over the edge and into the dark to let savitar be born - but it also makes the villain right in this instance, at least, to some degree.
unfortunately, its something that won't ever get expanded on and was jsut used as a one off line as an "evil" side of caitlain said. when do right when right, villains delivering hard truths can make for compelling waching imo because so many times shows / movies portray heroes as in the right and good that when something does it correctly, it really can be interesting having the villain point out the flaws in a hero and not just have them blame the hero for something - ala savitar blaming him - when yeah, a hero imprisioning a villain is normally how it works - but rather when the villain points out a valid flaw or character trait or traits.


which brings me to the issue i'm having right now... the story's been fine and has made some sense - at least in how important iris is if not savitar's explanation, etc which was dumb - but how does this lead into getting people excited for season 4?

presuming iris is alive because i can't see them killing her off and caitlain's back or at worse, killer frost is "redeemed" and savitar's obviously defeated... sure there are the returning characters that might help but for me personally, the idea of flash point was really intriguing heading into season 3. heading into season 4............. ? is barry potentially imprisoning himself in the speed force to understand sacrifice suppose to be that ?

Quote:
I was thinking about Killer Frost for the first half but she's already on her way of being redeemed
yep. wish i could say i was surprised... but it just kind of goes to show that while this might have lasted longer than it had in the past... it's not something more than a brief tease in their eyes. similar to flash point or earth two, barry being evil now with savitar... its good for a few episode run but by then it's served its purpose and its back to the "better" reality of all of them standing around star labs and none of them really doing anything.

what i imagine might happen is they'll have her keep her powers - maybe - but she'll still just stand at a computer desk or screen and even now and then might use them just to remind people that she has them or they'll have a new necklace made out of stronger material or something, etc...

kind of like various other characters and story lines that could have been interested and changed the dynamic of the show and developed characters in their own right that were sacrificed for various reasons and in the names of the holy star labs set and having everyone there - killer frost will ultimately fall victim to the same power. do not underestimate the power of the lab.

i mean... in reality... it was all of one episode and part of another, so one and a half? episodes.. we saw killer frost as a true villain for one episode in 3x20 and a scene in 3x19 where she escapes. then starting in 3x21 she's already on the road to being redeemed and caitlain retaking control. by the end of the episode. basically it was a slightly cooler version of the time we saw killer frost on earth two but will ultimately end up being just as pointless and meaningless in terms of the show.


Quote:
Doesn't Killer Frost team up with the Rogues in the comics?
not really? i mean, yeah, but only because grodd was mind controlling her.

i mean, she joined the injustice league and league of super villains, suicide squad and most recently of course the justice league, etc..... but none of those partnerships last a long time if i remember correctly. she generally was kind of a lone wolf type or someone who was at the fringes of belonging to a group.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:13 AM
  #45
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well, if the rogues are the big bad in season 4 then heat wave could make an appearance or come back too, etc...

and just... 3x22 was just..... meh.

iris isn' dead.
cisco's not losing his hands.
savitar's either dying or getting trapped.
etc, etc...


maybe its just me but if the show was trying to build to a crescendo before the finale or even this episode... for me at least, it did not succeed.
You sound disappointed that Iris doesn't die.
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