Summer Falls

God i love thess discussions i hope they answer all these questions

bonnie51

i don't even want to know what the reason is for savitar's needing killer frost.

that explanation just makes no sense to me other than it being about iris. that part makes sense...

the rest, given what the show had already told us, my understanding of time travel, etc... and knowing who and what savitar / future flash are supposed to be and what this story line now has become ( all because he wasn't loved welcomed?)

i'm ready for caitlain being back and doing nothing. plus, it might get rid of tracy.

FireQueen

^ Did he even talk to Killer Frost about his origin story and plans?

I'm finding it hard to watch episodes these days and the time remnant explanation is complete and utter bull****

What happens if Barry lets Savitar kill Iris and four years into the future does NOT create time remnants to defeat him? Would it undo Iris' past murder?

So Savitar was a Barry that was treated like a aberration by Barry and company. I mean, this isn't even about Iris. Nowhere did they say that Barry and the others were too broken after Iris' death that they shut the other Barry out for that reason. It was because he wasn't The Original. They were just dicks. SaviBarry doesn't even need to drive Barry into the dark so that he can be born, he just has to count on Barry and company's dickish side to come out once he survives the battle with Savitar. At this point that line makes no sense

I'm still pulling for Iris to show some compassion and erase him from existence. If hugs and caresses is all he needs, I'm sure Saint Iris can give him what he craves.

Apparently Iris got romance scenes with Amnesia Barry. I've seen some gifs and that part sounds sweet Still, no reaction when Savitar's identity was revealed. She should have been on the receiving end of the pep talk

It's funny that I haven't seen one scene with Tracy and I can already tell that she won't wow me. The same people who adore her are Felicity and Patty stans as well. The awkward quirky nerd woman is my least favorite character type.

bonnie51

nope. outside of his explanation to barry all we saw him do was kneel with his head in his hands... which led to killer frost b*tching at him and literally rapping her knuckles on his helmet when he didn't answer her... which lead to the choke scene... which was because he didn't remember who he was after barry lost his memories.

and then there was like "i remember" shot after barry remembered, and that was it. he had zero purpose really, three episodes from the end of the season.

other than a kind of swarmy little smirk when talking about the "other thing he needed" and said he was going to keep that to himself when talking to barry.


see, i had been gaining a little interest... and then that happened. it was bad enough that they had barry kill iris in the future... but now... this?

if that's what they came up with for his rationale for killing iris... i shudder at what the other thing is. someone to doe his nails? give him hugs?

exactly. i just... i don't understand this part. shouldn't present barry know that already from what future barry said... and then especially now, if he never creates time remnants... idk. the crap about the rules not applying the more you did... crap. i should have broken the law and my parents rules more often then, if the more you do something the less the rules apply

and because he's a time remnant... where the hell is black flash? after whacking eobard, you'd think this fool would be #1 on the speed force's hit list.

maybe they were trying to show Iris prevents them all from being dicks? idk...

but in all seriousness, WTF was THAT?????

you have barry, kill iris... and THAT. THAT. THAT... that is what you come up with? damn. pretty sure if i tried hard enough in about 5-10 minutes I could come up with some crap that made sense.

he's not the future flash.
he's not savitar.

he's emo barry with facial scars and shorter hair. not as catchy, i know, but that's who he is.

whoever came up with and approved that explanation needs to be stuck in the speed force

If I were a teacher... its an F-. I mean... damn. You take the primary ship of the show, comically the foundation of stable relationship and characters, have one of them kill the other and its because a future version didn't get a hug? what... how...what... why????

my head doesn't hurt... it exploded 5 minutes into the show. i might have missed a good moment here or there because i was just pissed the rest of the episode. i wish you're theory about him getting trapped and cut off because he didn't die for iris was true. that would be better than this. anything would probably be better than this.

and then they just had barry brood when everyone said he'd never hrut iris. he just sat there with his hand on his face and mumbled about "the darkness" to iris like "yeah, i've got darkness in me and i totally might be capable of murdering you some day" after which peptlak #44448885550011105338564 commenced....

no crap. no wonder why he closes his eyes in the flash sizzle real now, lol. this is his inner reaction





he threw all the dudes under the bus though - barry, wally, cisco and joe were all dicks.

once again, the show intentionally or unintentionally implies if the girls aren't around on team flash, it either all goes to hell and they are all dicks. and wait a second...

how did wally shun him if he was in a coma? don't they even watch their damn show from a couple episodes ago? and if he approached them after he survived then why was wally so taken back by what he saw that he became comatose? and was emo facial scar short hair barry - still not catchy - expecting a hug from someone who is comatose and crippled? seriously. do they watch their own show? i'm ont talking about season one, or even season two, or earlier this year. like two damn episodes ago. how can wally shun him and why is he so horrified by what he sees if emoscarredbarry - better - came to them looking for a hug? my head just exploded again.

and how in the blue hell did no one know who he was in the future if he was barry's time remnant he appeared to them looking for love? just....


writer's........this show right now....



they were good... could have done without the part where she questioned whether she wanted to bring "barry" and his memories back or leave him happy and have no flash... but that didn't last too long. i got why... i just don't know if i needed her wondering if the city needed the flash at the end of season 3. felt like we had already established that it did.

the flash back was nice... a tad cheesy, but i wanted flash backs and got one so that's enough for me to not mind the cheese all that much.

come on now... that would require getting an Iris pov on this hot mess... and that's as likely as why scarredemobarry's reason for needing killer frost probably not sucking....#notlikely

it was awful. we literally wasted time with hr talking about her lips and smoky eyes or some crap while saying he was going to focus on helping her work. then right after iris/amnesia barry kissed and he started getting powers back, tracy and hr kissed and she had some kind of break thru. it was like

Everyone! kiss someone and you'll have some kind of break thru! kiss a friend, kiss a lover, kiss a stranger... just find someone and kiss them. that's all you need.

it would have been a tad cheesy for me if it were just iris and barry that happened with. the fact that they then dared to do the same thing with hr and tracy....



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favorite parts....


cecile's reaction to amnesia barry was priceless.
iris and barry were largely enjoyable.


killer frost is priceless right now imo.
killer frost sassing savitar was good after he verbally smacked her last week... and i'm glad the choke scene was really just because he had no idea who he was or she was after the memory loss....
caitlain never would have just knocked on his helmet with her "anyone home" etc.. ... scarredemobarrybutnotreallybarrybutkindabarry sucks but she's still cool... even though we have no idea what she wants or why he needs her and her basically out of time to find out as they're off to talk to snart adn evade king shark next episode.

her little hmmph after team flash was all together at ht end and just strolled out like "i never loved any of you" was clearly a lie but i liked i for the fact that you didn't just have the villain crumble and fall when confronted as some shows do.


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least favorite....

#5559595502020558696303054095 pep talks happened last night.

still no iris pov.
still no earthy idea what killer frost's end game is.
still no idea what savitar's needs are exactly and what his end game is.
really crappy reasoning behind savitar.
tracy and hr.
wally just kind of.. being there.
stone cold being the random pyromaniac of the week.
julian annoys me more and more. last week it was

"caitlain, caitlain stop" outside jitters. this week was

"i'll fix you. i'll try again and again to fix you, i lover you"

morons. you ever think maybe part of the reason killer frost sided with facially scarred emo barry was that - whether using her or not - he didn't want to put her back in a cage and run tests on her, etc... and not only that... that was a great moment for a brief flashback and have it be cisco, barry and caitlain in the hall as a mini shout out to season 1. have it end the same way - but that would have been a little homeage instead of julian apparently loving caitlain which is almost as quick as hr's fallen in love with tracy.

and furthermore... damn, for smart people they are really dumb. after already being cornered once with killer frost using the hand scans around star labs... one might have thought cisco / barry / someone would have removed her hand scan so she can't stroll in there like what'supbitches?





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and i'm sorry... but this really bothers me.



that stare she gives him when wally asks why the time remnant , having barry's feelings would want to hurt them or kill iris and he just sat there and didn't say he " i wouldn't" or something and just got up and left... that bugs me. i know they had the pep talk with iris right after that... but still... that bothered me. i know to some degree having him deny it makes no sense... but that was just... wrong to me. i think there should have been something and then says that part of him was barry... i just am ????

amnesia barry and iris were great but barry and iris confused me. where they trying to imply that barry knows a part of him thinks about....? the "darkness"

FireQueen

OMG that video is so cute

Oh, okay. So you were right about the choke scene. Happy for you

They did this in order to protect Barry. He is not the one who kills Iris, it's a time remnant. Nothing changes in my opinion because it's still a Barry but the writers have a different perspective. Since it's not The Original, it doesn't matter. Except they still managed to throw this Barry under the bus because his future self is a dick. Same with Future Joe. And Future Cisco. And future HR. And Future Julian.

I can't get any credit for that. That wasn't my theory. It was a possible explanation that Chellie posted in the previous thread. She found it on Twitter. I couldn't have come up with that alone since I'm not that smart. I wasn't fond of that theory because it still made Iris The Person To Save and not the cause SaviBarry went dark but it was better than the writers' lame explanation.

And I'm sorry but didn't emo Barry talk about time remnants when listing all the things he tried to save Iris? Now the writers did a 180 and made emo Barry create time remnants four years later, when trying to trap Savitar?

This brings me to...

This. They need to leave Wally alone

Yeah. And the girls got caught in the crossfire because the men are dicks and can't cope

They didn't think the two things were related. They probably trapped Savitar without unmasking him, then shunned the time remnant without knowing that he would go back in time and become Savitar. Since Future Cisco was so desperate to have a Barry to keep him company, he could have shown the time remnant a little love

Does it though? Most villains are a result of Barry's screw ups. First the singularity, the Flashpoint. Barry and Team Flash are just cleaning up after their own mess. If they need a Flash, Jesse is one Earth away...I'm mostly joking here I wish they showed more of Flash's relationship with the city though.

This show has lots of flaws but I sincerely doubt they are implying that a part of this Barry wants to kill Iris. Did he tell the team why the time remnant went crazy? That it was basically their fault? Maybe that's why he didn't say anything when Wally asked that question.

bonnie51

yeah, i just didn't think if savitar was going to try to kill her or betray her they'd put in the trailer...

and i think i might have figured out why savitar wanted killer frost - at least partially. outside of barry, who by killing iris he'd push over the edge... who else has had has much trauma in their lives? she lost ronnie (twice, technically) jay who then turned out to be zoom, her father, etc... - so perhaps if killer frost is born out of suffering and despair, etc... - or at least what makes her a villain - he saw a kindred spirit in someone who has suffered a lot, hence his comment about being able to be gods, free of pain and suffering. just a theory.

non of that really explains what he needs from her or for her to do, etc. hopefully, it does not suck quite as much as his motivation for killing iris does but i am not going to hold my breathe on that one

yeah and when Iris said it wasn't him his response was "part of me is or part of him is" me. so that just doesn't make sense to me. because that made it seem like they were both protecting barry by making a time remnant but at the same time having barry give voice to the fact that he knows there is a darkness in him and in theory, could see where he might go down the road where he does terrible things to people he cares about.

so they both protected him but at the same time seemed to throw out there that in theory, barry could do some awful things, even having him talk about how easy it would be for a speedster to become a god, etc.


oh, okay.

true, it would have been better had she been the cause or worse case, the first domino to fall / the catalyst even if there was more stuff later on.

yeah, that's what i thought too? but i don't even think that the writers understand their own rules for time travel anymore or how part a ties into part b so idk....


which brings me too...

how in the blue hell does savitar know which time remnant is him? they'd all look, sound and act the same, no? or does it not matter, so long as any one of them survives, whether its time remnant #1 or time remnent #25... do they always become savitar or does he always have to save scar aka time remnant 52?



exactly. unless they're saying the time remnant approached wally before wally confronted savitar without them knowing that the savitar was the time remnant from the future and that's what scarred wally so badlly...

in the words of julian albert: oh dear lord.....

pretty much. considering the amount of bro time and man pain and bro talks...i'd laugh if it also wasn't going to make me cry a little.


i guess? which brings me back to my earlier question of whether or not there was a specific time remnant that savitar had to not kill in order to survive? and if so, how the eff did he figure out which one was which?

no crap. cisco's barry is broken and emo, wally's out of commission, cisco's out of commission and they shun a perfectly viable hero to let them combat villains if nothing else? i call BS.



sadly, you do have a point lol, at least to a degree. and agreed, it would have been nice to get more pov regarding barry's relationship with the city.




oh, i'm sure they are not either but it just... felt weird for me because of what was going on but that's just me.

nope. he literaly sat there moping and brooding while everyone stared at him...

then when iris follows him in and gives him the pep talk, it almost sounds like she was going to say something borderine positive about it being barry... then she gets defensive when barry looks at her after she says its him... and then he's just like "part of him is"

"i've seen that in myself, i want to make myself hurt as much as i do"

"yeah, but its in there, its in me. from loss." and he did say it was from losing her at least.


but the whole sequence of it just left me feeling kind of funny. maybe it was left over residue from how they explained savitar's exsistence, etc.

FireQueen

What if he needs her to freeze Cisco's hands and leave him powerless?

The trailer shows Savitar attacking Wally. It's possible he needs all of Barry's super powered allies out of commission before the big showdown.

I actually hope it's the other way around and she betrays him. I had the same wish when Caitlin was kidnapped by Zoom and the writers failed me back then. This is their second chance.

Yeah but I took that scene as Barry implying that he'd do the same to someone else, not to the people he cares about. Barry thought of himself as incapable of evil and it then hit him that sometimes he'd want others (his enemies?) to feel that kind of pain. Savitar doesn't care about those people so he has no problems hurting them. He wants Barry to become him, to be abandoned and forgotten, so I wonder if his ultimate plan is stealing Barry's life? He wants control of all time, whatever that means. Two episodes left and we have more questions than answers

I think it doesn't matter. The time remnant becomes Savitar because he survives and gets shunned. Whether it's time remnant #1 or time remnant #25, Barry and the team would treat him as a aberration. I don't know how the scar features into it but are we sure it's a result of the battle?

It depends on when Wally confronts Savitar. I thought it was immediately after Iris' death. At that point he couldn't come face to face with the poor time remnant because Barry had created him only four years later, when they trapped Savitar. This according to the 3x21 script because emo Barry told us a different story

Iris dies in 2017. Barry creates the time remnant in 2021. If Wally had come after Savitar before 2021 then he couldn't have met the time remnant.

I think he was scarred because Savitar unmasked in front of him and he saw that it was a version of Barry. That probably was enough to traumatize him.

I'm giving myself another headache

bonnie51

true but the little smile makes me wonder if its not something the writers think is really cool and ends up being really dumb...

edited the post below...

the only reason i said i needed it was just because even though its not barry... i have a little weird feeling about caitlain / killer frost being the only one who would basically merit being spared in a sense. it would also be similar to how grodd seemed to be attached to her because she was kind to him when he was experimented on.


perhaps, but he kicked wally and barry's a** at the same time earlier this season... so unless the show says they've gotten a lot stronger or he's gotten a lot weaker... idk if that part really matters?

that could be it... but maybe wally shows up during said scene where we see savitar + iris + joe and flies after savitar trying to protect them? maybe that's why in the sizzle real wally says that barry trusted him and he let him down???



agreed. and even though its not barry and the explanation was crap... and the choke was about him losing his memories....

caitlain's killer frost should still be more wary of trusting savitar, imo. maybe the one in the future eventually had reason to trust him more. but since we're not going to see that, she should still be wary of the idea of trusting someone like that, face or no face.

i mean, even if he isn't planning on betraying her right now, the thought would occur to me that after team flash is gone... he probably wouldn't really need me anymore. and unless he was inclined to keep me around for X reason... he might choose to rid himself of the last reminder of his former life.

most likely - 99% - correct. the timing and how the scene played out just kind of bugged me, obviously.

could be but what kind of life would that be? potentially KF is around, maybe not. everyone else would be either incapacitated, no longer with the living or hate him.

i took that to mean that he wants people to worship him instead of him seeing the people of central city worship barry / the flash and in that way, he's abandoned and forgotten.

which just begs the question to me, of where the Black Flash is? unless he's making an appearance in the finale to help stop him... all the messing with the time line 's done and apparently wanting to control time should have pissed off the speed force to send its #1 enforcer to pay savitar a visit.

true. but then all of them would have to feel exactly the same way about being rejected. i get that most of them might but every single one would feel that way? if time remnants have these abilities, zoom's were perfectly happy just letting him murder them off... granted, zolomon was deranged but still...

i have three theories regarding that.

1 - he ran so fast that he got burned by the speed force, hence why it won't heal.

2- there was / is a fall out with killer frost and she hit his face with a blast of ice, etc... which would ironically result in a scar / burn mark.

3. - he gets it from the final battle


yep. after one episode they messed up what they had just done

true

oh, i have no doubt about this.


with savitar's scar on his face and the rejection he endurred... this has got to be his theme song from now on




right there with you.

FireQueen

She won't be spared. Her destiny is to end up in a prison cell.

I've seen people speculate that Savitar has promised Killer Frost to bring Ronnie back as a thank-you gift. I don't know where the speculation comes from when there's been no indication that Caitlin even misses him. It sounds random to me. Plus, Savitar won't keep his end of the bargain.

Most likely. Savitar is going to kidnap Iris right? It will happen while Barry is busy doing whatever he's doing with Captain Cold. In the meanwhile, Cisco is fighting Killer Frost. That leaves Wally as the only super powered person left to protect Iris and Savitar is going to kick his @ss.

Okay, I'm probably wrong and there's something missing. I don't get how Lyla and Argus feature into this.

True. Which is why there has to be something more to his comments about controlling all of time and the rules not applying anymore. Time travel shenanigans can fix everything and Savitar will eventually have Barry's old life Don't mind me, I'm not making any sense.

He's taking a vacation. Or the Speed Force is a bitch and wants Barry to suffer. Or the rules don't apply anymore. Most likely a plot hole

I understand very little about time remnants. They are and they feel whatever the writers want them to be and feel. I'm trying not to overthink it My idea is that since they're duplicates programmed to do the same thing (fight Savitar), they'll all feel the same emotions.

bonnie51

oh, i know just...i just meant "from the wrath of savitar" unless of course he does betray her and then that is what leads to her being in a prison cell... because indirectly or directly he effs up everyone else.


that seems like a stretch. not to mention the fact that unless ronnie died - for the 10,000 time in the future - where was he in 2021? would he have abandoned kf? that makes no sense, whether savitar would or wouldn't - probably would not - keep that promise doesn't matter that much. i wonder if its the same group of people who were convinced savitar = ronnie?


believe so.


see, this is where jessie's absence becomes really obvious. i know, i complain about the crowded screen etc... but realistically, if barry KNOWS he's going off to find captain cold... if only there was another super powered hero i knew and who knew me who could keep it at the 3-2 ratio in our favor when i was gone, and then when i came back, it would be 4-2. hmm..... if only there was someone out there who fit that mold....

or you know, if instead of leaving - which i did in 3x19 rather than tracking down my enemies and dealing with that first by potentially tacking killer frost off the board - i'm going to repeat that mistake and leave her and savitar running on the lose and just bounce. i mean, its not like the villains would ever take advantage of my absence, would they... ..... err, what?

or even better, what if instead of us sitting around and looking gloom, if i whisked iris off somewhere to earth 19 or something, or brought in jessie and potentially gyspy .... and then i might not need to create remnants and scar is never born. i know... perhaps too logical and lacks drama, etc.

maybe because they want scar to be in their army of messed up meta humans lol... idk. because naturally argus is going to want the red blob of crap for themselves.

just so long as he doesn't start talk about conquering worlds when all he's really done is conquer one city, i'm okay

well, at least the show's not alone anymore



or some kind of all three.... thawne, zoom and barry... don't mess with the time line or we'll send time wraiths / black flash after you a**...

savitar, do whatever the eff you want baby.


so do i... which outside of the stupidity of the explanation on its own which is pretty much impossible to do - the fact that we've had time remnants before we all seemed to basically accept their status as "disposable" and given no effs about their brief lot in life... until now. where we basically have the ultron of time remnants who becomes sentient




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i feel like caitlain has to regain control in 3x22. because that would explain how the shot of her saying "bye bye vibe" makes sense in that she returns right before killer frost kills / de hands cisco and would be a reference to her changing eyes in the elevator / hall way scene

FireQueen

Not HR He was better off in the future, then Barry had to stick his nose into it and eff up his chances of getting a threesome

I'm not sure if it's the same people. To me it doesn't make much sense because there's been no build up to it. The one time Caitlin mentioned Ronnie it was when Killer Frost was guilt tripping Barry. She doesn't need his heat and wasn't shown to miss him. I guess she loved him, maybe more than her other LIs, but even in S1 I bought the love more from Ronnie's side. It doesn't matter anyway because he won't come back.

If only Barry knew a super powered alien who is super fast, super strong, bulletproof, has super hearing and heat vision...Oh, wait

I don't think it was a bad idea to time travel in 3x19. He would have come back to the exact moment he left anyway. No time would have passed for the others. I guess he's planning to do the same in 3x22 but something will go wrong.

The show taught me well

No but really, I would love it if Savitar had no intention of killing Iris and just wanted her for himself. He just needs Barry to think that she's dead in order to ensure his existence. This is kind of heartbreaking because I believe that Iris wouldn't have shunned SaviBarry, especially after seeing that scene in the sizzle reel The problem is that she wasn't around at the time of his creation, and she wasn't there because his future self had killed her

bonnie51

lol, true... but then what happened with this budding romance between HR and tracy? not that i really care but still...

kind of felt the same... though i don't trust the show not to bring him back


true enough but still... why not call them? what's the point of the cross overs and having them become the mini avengers and then not use them when you actually need them?

this reminds me of darth - vader vs. obi wan

"when i left you, you were the master and i was the learner. now, the circle is complete and i am the master"

that would be interesting... but unless he had a way to prevent cisco from vibing - he'd be able to find iris. unless of course something happened to cisco's hands



that is what we like to call hind sight

but yeah, i don't think she would have either.

FireQueen

Nothing. The future is changing. Tracy was supposed to develop the tech only four years later. Maybe if HR and Tracy had met under different circumstances they wouldn't have fallen in "like".

That is exactly what other fans are speculating. At first I thought that Savitar was just trying to neutralize the team metas so that only Barry could take part in the final showdown. It was weird that every time they vibed the future there was no Wally or Cisco there to help Barry, only Wells with a rifle on the roof.

The theory about Killer Frost freezing Cisco's hands to prevent him from finding Iris is so much better though. Maybe SaviBarry is trying to duplicate Iris, he kills one copy to trick Barry while keeping the other for himself. Perhaps that is what happened originally as well but something went wrong and both Irises died I need to stop

I don't like the shows explanation because they're making me feel sorry for the villain. This is crazy. What's even crazier is that they managed to paint Barry and what was left of the team in a very bad light. They shunned SaviBarry because he wasn't the true Barry. Really?

bonnie51

yeah, but to still a line from scar "are we/they?" changing the future? its so confusing right now as to what does and doesn't impact the future and what rules there are or aren't.

wally makes no sense unless he is more hurt than what he appears from scar's attack in the coming episode... although that wouldn't explain how he was then able to try to confront savitar after he killed iris in the future....

and cisco could be easily explained if he's off confronting killer frost.

yeah, the main issue with that is there is so much an easier way if that was his plan -

go back to when barry's in a coma and take iris. there'd be no vibe back then to find out, no knowledge then of jessie or the other earth's yet and barry would have lost iris when he woke up, which could in theory, help to ensure your existence in the future.

if i just wanted to steal iris or a version of iris, that's what i'd do. it'd be anticlimatic and not make for great tv and a little like thawne going back in time to kill barry, etc... but it'd work and it be a helluva lot easier and less complicated.

i mean, that way might not leave barry totally alone - maybe he becomes the flash and maybe he doesn't - but who knows if wally would come to town then, etc.. and what else might get changed. and since time travel rules odn't seem to imply anymore, etc, etc... it'd be so simple, i'd have iris, they'd have no way of trying to find me and barry would brood and become me in the future. easy.

meh. not really though because there's nothing in that for her. we've talked about kind of wanting to know what her end game is... but in that scenario...uh, i can't think of one?

i mean, iris' death and the collapse of team flash serve her interest in that unless savitar were to betray her, not having a flash around or vibe, or kid flash would mean that there was no one to challenge her freedom.

barry would never stop looking for iris, nor would wally, so even if its just barry - who then probably would run back in time, etc. - but even if not would probably hate her as he does in the future, there's a threat to her freedom, etc without cisco's powers.

the destruction of team flash from KF's point of view all but guarantees her freedom. not only is iris gone but barry's neutralized, basically by emotions, wally's cripped as is cisco. so her motivation for wanting that is fairly straight forward.

hey, it could be possible right now. who knows. but yeah, too many theories, questions compared to answers = head pain.

that being said, its pretty darn late to have that reveal pop up seemingly from no where regarding his secret motivation.

yeah, the one i could maybe see doing it is barry because of his ability to brood and self doubt / hate, etc...everyone else? not as much.

this would have been so much better if they would have stuck with the basics of the future flash story, maybe changed a few things, etc... but kept that around and then he future flash sticks around heading into season 4 for a little while and changes the future, etc....

but right now there's less than zero percent chance of savitar sticking around past 3x23... and he's not even the future flash. he's the future copy of the future flash....

FireQueen

It's confusing but Savitar also needs for some things to change unless he plans on reentering the loop and get stuck in the Speed Force.

Forget my theory. We know that Killer Frost attacks Vibe. I assume she wants to cut off his powers because she makes a point to say "Bye bye Vibe", not "Bye bye Cisco". Maybe she is doing it because that is what she wants. Or she's just following Savitar's orders waiting for her reward. Whatever he endgame is, I believe it plays into Savitar's plans.

My point is, even if Savitar wants to neutralize Vibe so that he can't find Iris, that doesn't prevent Killer Frost from doing it for her own personal reasons.

I like that theory because I'm still struggling with the idea that any version of Barry would kill Iris. From my perspective, that scenario doesn't strip Killer Frost of her agency any more than following Savitar's other orders did.