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Old 05-06-2017, 03:24 AM
  #316
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some interesting theories












the last one is the basis of savitar's flash story

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Old 05-06-2017, 05:47 AM
  #317
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So many theories

At this point I don't care anymore. I just need the show to protect Iris and the WA love story. From my PoV this reveal could destroy them beyond repair. They need to be careful here because I completely disagree that since Iris won't die and SaviBarry won't come to pass the whole thing would be meaningless. They've spent a season on this and it will remain attached to the ship forever. Iris "sabotaging" Linda is still used as a reason to hate on her so I don't even want to think about what would happen if SaviBarry murdered Iris just because...

I don't know if Killer Frost sticks but if she uses the powers to do good it's still a change. She started the season with powers that scared her and then learned how to take control. I actually think Killer Frost will be a villain even after the finale. She can be the non speedster big bad for the first half of S4. I just don't think we're done with her just yet.

Barry and Iris was established before this season but S3 has them engaged and living together in that nice apartment of theirs. This season has been about all but "Barry and Iris are destined to be together". It's actually the opposite. The arc has been about the characters defying their own destiny. Even though the execution has been sloppy I'm weirdly grateful that the writers have given them this storyline. This is how Barry and Iris act when they learn about a future that they do NOT want. There's a stark difference between Iris learning that her days are numbered and Iris learning that she marries Barry in the future/Earth-2. Scared vs intrigued and hopeful. This may not convince the WA detractors that Iris is with Barry because she loves him and not because destiny says so but whatever

Wally and Jesse don't have now the same relationship they had in S2. Whether they stay together or break up, it's still a change.

Joe and Cecile is new. Agree. Joe even took off his wedding ring for her. I think this is huge.

I doubt Julian dies but he could go back to London. Or he can keep fighting for Caitlin's soul if she stays Killer Frost past S3.

Wally has speedster powers now. Change that will stick.

I'm not discussing the execution here, just the story. To some/many the writing can be awful but it still doesn't change the fact that powers-wise and relationships-wise the characters are not in the same place they were at the end of S2/beginning of S3.

I agree that they need to change the formula though. While the characters have new powers/new relationship/are at a different stage in their relationships or all of the above they still don't have individual arcs and very little agency. This is what happens when shows are extremely plot-driven. I think that even if they wanted to be done with STAR Labs, their hands are tied. That set is too expensive to get rid of.
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:40 AM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireQueen (View Post)
At this point I don't care anymore. I just need the show to protect Iris and the WA love story. From my PoV this reveal could destroy them beyond repair. They need to be careful here because I completely disagree that since Iris won't die and SaviBarry won't come to pass the whole thing would be meaningless. They've spent a season on this and it will remain attached to the ship forever. Iris "sabotaging" Linda is still used as a reason to hate on her so I don't even want to think about what would happen if SaviBarry murdered Iris just because...
fair enough. i never cared that strongly about the linda-barry relationship so i don't really care about that aspect.

i would 100% agree with you that it wouldn't be meaningless IF... the show actually addressed it and the potential fall out from it.

but since i have a sinking feeling that it won't be adequately addressed- lord knows there won't be an iris POV regarding the situation but just barry's etc... - then i don't know that for me personally, it has a lasting impact IF the show just continues on like nothing happened and it was just a bad dream. if they actually addressed it.. then yes, there was something gained from the story line with her survival... but if she survives and the writing continues on as if nothing changed and its never addressed.... then for me... what was the point?

either she dies - someone else dies pretending to be her - or she survives and they address it and give her some pov in order to address it.

i am fairly confident #1 isn't going to happen. sadly have confidence #3 might not either. and that leaves #2... but am not sure how exactly that works so....

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I don't know if Killer Frost sticks but if she uses the powers to do good it's still a change. She started the season with powers that scared her and then learned how to take control. I actually think Killer Frost will be a villain even after the finale. She can be the non speedster big bad for the first half of S4. I just don't think we're done with her just yet.
yeah, it would be a change, your right about that, but i don't think they would write her different or that different from what they do with caitlain. i just don't think they'd have her use her abilities that much and while it would be different in a sense, it'd be somewhat if not largely marginalized imo.

and i hope she does remain a villain - or at least a grey character - into season 4. the theory about her potentially scarring his face was interesting... but how likely? i mean in the future she said they were a hell of a team so her scarring his face would thus seem unlikely... i still think that was a speed force thing before he realized he needed his suit.

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Barry and Iris was established before this season but S3 has them engaged and living together in that nice apartment of theirs. This season has been about all but "Barry and Iris are destined to be together". It's actually the opposite. The arc has been about the characters defying their own destiny. Even though the execution has been sloppy I'm weirdly grateful that the writers have given them this storyline. This is how Barry and Iris act when they learn about a future that they do NOT want. There's a stark difference between Iris learning that her days are numbered and Iris learning that she marries Barry in the future/Earth-2. Scared vs intrigued and hopeful. This may not convince the WA detractors that Iris is with Barry because she loves him and not because destiny says so but whatever
fair enough. my point was, them getting engaged and moving in together was the logical progression of where they left off in season 2. so while there has been growth and development there, that's fair... if as we discussed above presuming her survival and nothing is addressed... it can be put into the + side of the ledger but it could have been more.

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Wally and Jesse don't have now the same relationship they had in S2. Whether they stay together or break up, it's still a change.
yeah, but again, it was the logical progression. i don't want to be surprised every episode or with every character but i do like feeling like i'm not moving in a straight line. sometimes its okay to take the scenic tour or the back way.

its a change but idk... presuming iris survives, what savitar did is never really addressed and caitlain comes back... i just don't know Sl what moved the needle a ton.

Season 1: of course barry gets powers, everyone finds out who the flash is just about, well's betrayal of being eobard, cisco gets his powers, etc, ronnie and eddie's deaths, etc.

Season 2: the multi verse, the idea of destiny, delve more into the speed force, time remnants, barry goes back in time and saves his mom, his dad dies, etc, wally gets his powers.

Season 3: uh... its been more baby steps? and a lot of it has had to do with relationships - either barry/iris, cecile/joe or wally/jessie. cisco's powers have enhanced, killer frost is a big one, but again, if everything works out as i expect... i mean, i guess they dealt more with the speed force but only a little bit. and wally got his powers... so that might be the main change or development outside of the progression of relationships, potentially.

it just feels like there will be less substantial moments than season one or two.
that doesn't make it bad, entirely. it just makes me feel a little weird, idk. its just how i feel. still have really enjoyed the last few episodes but with the end so close i am a tad off put / puzzled, i guess.

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I doubt Julian dies but he could go back to London. Or he can keep fighting for Caitlin's soul if she stays Killer Frost past S3.
financially i don't think they show can afford to have him back and bring in more people for season 4 and keep jessie, cecile, etc... could be wrong.

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Wally has speedster powers now. Change that will stick.
forgot about that. for some reason i equate him getting his powers to the accident at the end of season two when barry got his powers back.

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I'm not discussing the execution here, just the story.
see, the writing can be bad but i am talking story. i think every season you'd want people to have X number of take aways or come out feeling like the season might something or the fight with the big bad meant something, the payoff, so to speak.

and if its never addressed with savitar / iris story line and killer frost thaws and caitlain emerges... meh? barry's not getting trapped in the speed force for more than a minute. the show will speed ahead and act like he was if he goes into the speed force at the end of the season but in terms of 3x23 to 4x01... he won't be gone.

there's been natural progression of relationships and wally has powers. caitlain has powers but how much that sticks and how much it doesn't remains to be seen. if i'm correct on how the season ends... i just don't see that as much of a payoff.



Quote:
I agree that they need to change the formula though. While the characters have new powers/new relationship/are at a different stage in their relationships or all of the above they still don't have individual arcs and very little agency. This is what happens when shows are extremely plot-driven. I think that even if they wanted to be done with STAR Labs, their hands are tied. That set is too expensive to get rid of.
probably true regarding star labs.

i also think some of its too man characters....
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:21 AM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
i would 100% agree with you that it wouldn't be meaningless IF... the show actually addressed it and the potential fall out from it.
Even if they don't address it it's still a storyline that exists. That's my point. It's not a bad dream. It's a reality. Out there there is a real timeline where a Barry is willing to murder Iris.

These are the same characters that have been portrayed as being in love in multiple timelines and on two Earths. Now the show has added a timeline where Barry is so far gone that he stabs Iris through the heart. As a fan, I'm hurt.

The only way to soften this blow is giving SaviBarry a strong motive. Something like killing Iris is necessary because SaviBarry wants power, needs to access his darkness and since Iris is his love and his light he must get rid of her. Her love is what saves him and he doesn't want salvation. For me, something like that would work. It wouldn't make things right but it would make sense and protect the love story at its core.

I agree that we need Iris' PoV etc. but the show can never address this properly because Barry is the main character. If it were the other way around and Iris were Savitar and she murdered Barry I could see the show killing her off. They obviously can't do the same with the protagonist.

How do you want them do address it? Do you want Iris to break up with him? Do you want her to tell Barry that she never wants to see him again because she's scared of the person he may become? And then what happens? The show goes on and they act like Barry wouldn't be able to do the same to anyone else? Because that would be half-assing it.

The moment the showrunners decided to make Barry Savitar they wrote themselves into a corner. They definitely can't pursue this narrative that Barry is inherently capable of such evil. I mean, look at them shielding a secondary character like Caitlin by making Killer Frost this evil alternate persona that has possessed her body.

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
yeah, but again, it was the logical progression. i don't want to be surprised every episode or with every character but i do like feeling like i'm not moving in a straight line. sometimes its okay to take the scenic tour or the back way.
Sorry, I don't understand this. Are you upset that the writers developed the love story they had set up in the previous season instead of dropping it altogether or do you feel like the characters didn't have much outside of the love story? I'm talking about Wally/Jesse which is a ship I thought you liked.

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
it just feels like there will be less substantial moments than season one or two.
that doesn't make it bad, entirely. it just makes me feel a little weird, idk. its just how i feel. still have really enjoyed the last few episodes but with the end so close i am a tad off put / puzzled, i guess.
We're opposite because I have yet to find the strength to watch 3x20, I hated 3x19 and 3x18 was a big fat meh.

It's possible they've burned through plots pretty quickly. I mean, they've been rehashing certain arcs since S2.

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Originally Posted by bonnie51 (View Post)
i also think some of its too man characters....
Definitely. I want Julian to stay because I love the actor but the character has been wasted. I never wanted him to join STAR Labs and of course that is what happened because God forbid someone has stuff to do outside of STAR Labs
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:24 AM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireQueen (View Post)
Even if they don't address it it's still a storyline that exists. That's my point. It's not a bad dream. It's a reality. Out there there is a real timeline where a Barry is willing to murder Iris.
depending on how they explain it, this is true. what i mean is, you're right, but if he's a time remnant or some kind of flash point consequence that is more paradox than reality... then its not quite as much in some ways.

now if he really is future barry or just from a different time line, etc... then that's different and you're absolutely right.

and while it will be an issue for me, i was just talking abut an issue with the show. if they drop it and never address it after the finale... i'm not sure they will see it as said story line. how many story lines or potential story lines have there been that have existed because of something and then they just put them in the closet and tried to pretend it never existed?


Quote:
These are the same characters that have been portrayed as being in love in multiple timelines and on two Earths. Now the show has added a timeline where Barry is so far gone that he stabs Iris through the heart. As a fan, I'm hurt.
i understand. it was certainly an odd choice imo... as just a comic fan, even if geting use to the idea of barry killing iris was possible... the overall use of the characters in the story bugs me. if they wanted it to be future barry, just call him the future flash and leave savitar out of it....

again, if it were me... i would have done malcolm thawne. that way they can do what apparently they decided to do - have an image of barry killing iris - and still protect the love story that they did develop over the first two seasons and multiple earths by having it not actually be barry that kills her but rather his twin. and his motivation for doing such would actually be straight forward, etc... and wouldn't have our heads hurting from trying to figure our how this works and why.

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The only way to soften this blow is giving SaviBarry a strong motive. Something like killing Iris is necessary because SaviBarry wants power, needs to access his darkness and since Iris is his love and his light he must get rid of her. Her love is what saves him and he doesn't want salvation. For me, something like that would work. It wouldn't make things right but it would make sense and protect the love story at its core.
it would and that might be what they're doing? the one issue is they've done so little to savibarry as a character that i don't know if whatever motivation they give him is going to really work for me. even with that... there was no kind of march towards that reveal, etc...

as random as zoom's arc was at times, we had some clear motivation - at least in terms of his dying, etc. savibarry... not so much. we know why he hates barry, ok. and apparently needs to kill iris. and apparently needs something from killer frost... but we're at 3x21... it kind of looks like a fillerish episode that might not give us much more than the motivation - which is good - but the character of savitar is so weak that idk... i wish we had 5 episodes or so where we could see savibarry some flash backs or character development or something, etc. because without any real development, depending on what the motivation or motivations is or are... its kind of like in some ways they threw crap a the wall and it kind of stuck so they went with it.


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I agree that we need Iris' PoV etc. but the show can never address this properly because Barry is the main character. If it were the other way around and Iris were Savitar and she murdered Barry I could see the show killing her off. They obviously can't do the same with the protagonist.
i'm a little confused. so if iris' evil future came back and killed barry.. do you mean that you could see them killing savi-iris off or iris iris off? because we talked about potentially the need to kill savibarry... so i'm a little confused as to who you mean would get killed off.

as for her POV... that's true. but they have time for 8,000 bro talks so there is time that they could use....

and god help me, i'm sure barry at least will try to give savibarry a pep talk. who knows, maybe iris too. god help me... they should just call the show "peptalk"

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How do you want them do address it? Do you want Iris to break up with him? Do you want her to tell Barry that she never wants to see him again because she's scared of the person he may become? And then what happens? The show goes on and they act like Barry wouldn't be able to do the same to anyone else? Because that would be half-assing it.
that's a hard question to answer because i don't think they will address it.

but in trying to answer your question... i would say there should be some strain for a handful of episodes, lets say, 5-6? at most 4A. maybe not a break up...but there's a noticeable distance at times where - this would be from Iris pov etc as well - where they can still be together and still live together maybe etc...

and i'm not talking fighting, but just...unsure? tentative? and there are really good conversation moments where its covered, and maybe with wally, joe, maybe jay comes back and has a pearl of wisdom, etc... idk.

and then since they've developed the story thus far, maybe then you say around the winter break etc. maybe it ties into joe's speech about it all being about love, etc... and they start coming back together, gradually, slowly, and its a screw the future, i know you, and no matter what happens this is where i'm supposed to be, etc..

again, not big blow up fights although maybe someone leaves in a huff, etc... but just more.. awkwardness with discussion, both of their pov's, etc... make it a journey, where its not fine right away, its not okay, right away, make it a real issue they have to work thru.


if they were ever going to have them break up - and i have serious doubts about that as well given how they have written them / the story -the only way iMO it works is a boring one, that happens to millions of people every year, some of them who feel like they've found their one soul mate. they grow apart. there's no cheating, no other man / woman, no abuse, certainly no one of them killing the other one in the future. and then maybe after that you bring in different love interests but certainly only after and not before.

so try to sum it up.. i'd make it a process. not something that was over in 2-3 episodes. use each character pov. have really strong emotional scenes that both candice and grant can deliver. and its a horrible idea if this is why they break up because it is about as lazy as you can get. because even if i'm not a huge fan of WA on the show...the idea of barry killing iris, married or not, together or not, is not something i can get my mind around. she was always going to be right there with him, whether together romantically or not, so this.. is just... meh and ugh at the same time.

Quote:

The moment the showrunners decided to make Barry Savitar they wrote themselves into a corner. They definitely can't pursue this narrative that Barry is inherently capable of such evil. I mean, look at them shielding a secondary character like Caitlin by making Killer Frost this evil alternate persona that has possessed her body.
they did, somewhat, yes. and while the idea of it being the future flash and not savitar makes more sense...unless the explanation is really awesome, i don't buy barry wanting to hurt / kill iris. ever.

future flash was dark, and he was twisted and he did murder people and kill off or attempt to at least himself and wally...so i guess technically it works. but then you have to have a really great explanation and i do worry about that. it has to be a home run and even then, idk.

because i'm just having a hard time trying to understand what in the hell he needs to kill iris for and then turn around needs kf for... are they related? are they not? we know its not for her to kill iris because he does that and ... oh, gawd, my head hurts again.

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Sorry, I don't understand this. Are you upset that the writers developed the love story they had set up in the previous season instead of dropping it altogether or do you feel like the characters didn't have much outside of the love story? I'm talking about Wally/Jesse which is a ship I thought you liked.
basically the later, and yes, i do like them together. i wouldn't mind seeing a little more of them but then again that means less of something else so that's not a pressing issue right now for me., especially since we don't see that much of jessie - and maybe that's part of it, i don't know - but i guess i'd like to see more of their development. due to time constraints i understand why we don't - however i just feel like sometimes they use it as a cheap reason they aren't in the episode - ala wally last episode was off to see jessie.

i understand why that happens - budget, time, both, etc. - but if you're going to take the time to put a relationship - i'd like to see more of it on screen rather than off screen. again, i don't know how to manage that given the crowded board at the moment. just speaking on personel preference. i love their adorkableness and awkwardness they've had times and with everyone being gloomy... it would have been a nice break instead of always just having hr's jokes.


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We're opposite because I have yet to find the strength to watch 3x20, I hated 3x19 and 3x18 was a big fat meh.
yeah, the only episodes i've really loathed this season were the gorilla ones... there have been a couple others that have come close but those two...

and to be honest, i'm not sure if i'm looking foward to this one. i don't trust them with what savibarry needs, why he needs it, what he has do, etc...

at this point in time this should be the explanation:

i kill iris because that's what destroys / cripples me and possibly ensures my existence and i needed killer frost instead of caitlain because with her and iris both gone the team falls apart and everything goes to hel without the girls. for all the bro moments and the man pain and pep talks, etc... you take the girls away and everything goes to ****.


Quote:

It's possible they've burned through plots pretty quickly. I mean, they've been rehashing certain arcs since S2.
yeah and its the combining of villains. reverse flash was basically himself but then we had zoom who was a combination of people and this one ...oh god. he's the future flash, he's not savitar. he's not indian, we shouldn't be dealing with this philospher's stone BS...

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Definitely. I want Julian to stay because I love the actor but the character has been wasted. I never wanted him to join STAR Labs and of course that is what happened because God forbid someone has stuff to do outside of STAR Labs
at this point the only way this works is that evil wells had to have some serious $$$$$ patents out there or they've sold off a bunch of tech because none of them do a damn thing

joe does... but come , detectives don't make that much lol... i mean what, when they bust meta humans do they hustle them out of their money?


i like the actor. i always disliked the character because i saw from day one what he would become ie caitlain's seasonal love interest would be a big part of his story line.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:36 AM
  #321
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Barry Allen | The Flash [Spoilers & Speculation] #7: Getting a glimpse of the show's future is like time traveling!
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