Summer Falls

Im happy your enjoying the show again i do agree sometimes when you discuss the show it puts you off but im glad you are enjoying it again

FireQueen

How old is Savitar and from what timeline is he from? I don't understand what rules this show is trying to follow when it comes to time travel.

The fact that Savitar has lived all of this should mean that he isn't a Barry, he's this Barry. If there's only one future then Savitar should be born after 2024, after and not before Iris' death. In this case her loss (and possibly Joe's and Team Flashes) can still explain Barry's descend into darkness. The fact is that Iris is dead because Savitar killed her so this creates a time paradox. Unless that future that Barry was tossed into is just an illusion and Iris dies in different circumstances, Barry and the team fall apart and Savitar is born. Then Savitar travels back in time to make sure that Iris stays dead (by killing her?) so future Barry can break, the team can fall apart and Savitar ensues his existence. Basically, Iris has to die for Savitar to exist.

The theory that only one future exists doesn't explain why in 3x19 Barry was determined to fix the broken team when it would have made perfect sense to just go back to his time, save Iris and make sure that that future would never come to pass. This should mean that that is one future but not necessarily his future. If he saved Iris, his future would be different but a Barry without an Iris would still exist in the multiverse.

I'm rambling. I don't understand any of this

I would like to have a one-on-one scene with Iris and Savitar.

a fine mess

We are left with many questions. Not sure if we will get all the answers by the finale! I sense a big cliffhanger.

bonnie51

yeah. it is kind of confusing. cause he doesn't look that much older than barry or emo barry... but then again, maybe its possible to alter the way you age thru the speed force if you become fast enough? don't know...



see, i agree with this. he could be a time remnant but i don't think a time remnant would have all the memories. i mean, zoom's time remnant disappeared for stretches - i presume to coordinate with Zoom? - and he didn't seem to know everything that was going on. The only way it really makes sense if he is the future version of this barry for him to remember everything that happened. because we've also seen that barry's on other earth's - ala e2 - don't have the same memories.

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see, i think its this. i think potentially savitar is here to fulfill his own destiny of becoming savitar and that basically its the kind of time loop / paradox where savitar potentially kills iris, destroys team flash and thus ensures his turning into savitar in the future - which again, seems like a stupid plan since he ultimately gets captured and trapped - unless he thinks he can avoid that since he knows how it happens -

but then why not just kill tracy? he's so much faster than barry right now - sigh- that he could have wham bam - killed tracy and then scooped up killer frost - all at the same time

i think she does? but maybe not? idk. its hard to say really since we don't know that much about savitar and how it happened... i mean, he can't become savitar after killing iris because then why did he kill iris - if that was in fact what happened? so it can't be he became savitar when he was trapped in the speed force because that doesn't match up. that's also why i don't think he's a time remnant because barry wouldn't have created those until savitar appeared so him being a time remnant doesn't add up because they weren't around until after savitar appeared, so how could he be one? unless he's the one that got sucked into the zoom portal from last season... but then how would he know everything that happened this season? because it doesn't make sense to say that he got sucked to the future but still remembered everything that happened this season.....

unless of course that's what starts the process of him becoming savitar? i mean, maybe if barry nevers goes to the future, that emo barry just stays being broken, team flash never is reborn, etc... and savitar never exists.

perhaps its in a future conflicg with someone that something happens that starts barry's descent into darkness after becoming the flash again.

yeah. that would be an interesting scene, hopefully it happens. i know DP said that while almost all of killer frost's interactions with savitar are with the suit there will be eventually a time where we see her interacting with evil barry as himself and it was neat getting to see grant play the villain, etc.... so hopefully that means that evil barry will interact with iris, and maybe joe? even at some point and not just the suit. my thing was barry should have just snatched him up when he steps out of the suit because didn't they basically say he's somewhat powerless without the suit since he runs so fast he needs the suit to combat the friction or whatever? i saw something on you tube where they said maybe that is what scarred his face was the speed force when he was running and that was why his face never healed...


we need more of iris pov...its honestly starting to piss me off...she's supposedly dying soon and we're not getting anything. we got caitlain's paranoia or fear of becoming killer frost. we've gotten boat loads of barry's fear, etc... but almost nadda from iris. which yes, sadly, is kind of par for the course, but if there was ever a time... this would seem to be it.

then again, if they actually did do that, i might be more convinced she was going to die since typically when shows suddenly start focusing on a character's pov out of the blue... it means something is coming and its not good. still remember captain montgomery from castle and how they started showing more of his family right before his death, etc...

but even with that said... there should be more from her pov regarding this situation. we even had cisco and julian pov's regarding killer frost, etc... enough of this.

HOLY FREAKING FRENCH TOAST. WHAT IF... BARRY WAS SAVITAR WHEN FIGHTING THE REVERSE FLASH?


or at least... was starting down that path? because I'm remembering some of the stuff he said to barry in season one...


"no hint of the man you one day would become" i mean... could that be why reverse flash hates barry? because barry was maybe not the hero we see today and he let something happen or did something that was morally wrong or gray and that is what lead to the rivalry?

and that's why he hates him... and it'd make sense for him to have the tacheon thing in the future then because he'd have to have a way to run as fast as savitar or barry who was close to becoming savitar.

i don't know... but just, if this is future barry... then that line makes a lot of sense in terms of reverse flash saying that about the man that barry would become... and it would even make sense somewhat as to why he went back in the future to kill barry to prevent him from becoming that powerful


so to sum up questions....


1. when / how does barry become savitar?
2. what time line is he from? is it because of flash point because i might scream if it is but i have a feeling it could be.
3. regardless of time frame... why does he decide killing iris is what he wants to do ? is it a self fulfilling prophecy kind of thing where he's ensuring his existence and the purity of the time line? or something else?
4. and i still can't figure out what he needs from killer frost... because the ep's did an interview saying he needed something from her... which just doesn't make sense. because while i'm glad it gives KF a purpose for once and am loving her abilities.....i still can't think of anything she can do power wise that savitar would need help with. other than just evening the odds... unless of course it goes back to the self fulfilling prophecy of the destruction of team flash and iris death is what turns him into savitar eventually so he needs caitlain to "die" and become killer frost, just like he has to kill iris?

FireQueen

I never understood the science behind time remnants, it's the thing that confused me the most about the Zoom plot. You're right that it doesn't seem they have all the same memories but the writers can always retcon it. I mean, I'm not sure they know what they're doing half the time. I still don't understand their logic of time travel and why it seems that Barry can interact with his past self or replace him depending on the plot of the episode, see Barry interacting with his past self in 2x17 vs Flashpoint.

I actually think that Barry time traveling to 2024 changed the future because if the events had played out as they were supposed to I guess 2017 Barry's arrival shouldn't have come as a surprise to the future members of Team Flash.

And if Savitar didn't exist before 2017 Barry's intervention then where did emo Barry come from? He was like this because of the battle with Savitar. If there were no Savitar there would be no emo Barry either but since emo Barry existed then it couldn't be 2017 Barry's doing that inadvertently created Savitar. For emo Barry Savitar had to already exist. My head hurts

I don't get Iris as a character anymore. This Mary Sueish version that is just so stoic, selfless, passive, that thinks of others before herself or has no PoV at all is just so unappealing. I think Candice tries to portray her as vulnerable when the camera focuses on her but there's not much she can do when she has no dialogue. I thought they were going somewhere after 3x09 but all the possible development went out of the window comes episode 3x13.

I could say the same thing about Barry since after the mentoring Wally arc the writers doubled down on the things that make me dislike Barry, his stupidity and dependence on the team. I still cringe when I think about the battle with the gorillas and Top whamming him. And don't even get me start on Barry breaking up with Iris for no sensible reason, leaving her scared in their apartment while he's busy moping on Cisco's couch. The plot forced these characters to make decisions that made no logical sense.

I realized that this season I liked WA as a couple more than I liked both Iris and Barry as individual characters. At least with the ship I could fangirl over the cuteness, the engagement and the corniness of the musical. The writing for the individual characters is just not there. Now the writing for the couple is disgusting as well because they've turned the ship into abusive trash sooo...

I don't get Caitlin/Killer Frost as a character either. Cool powers and all but where is her agency? And I'd like them to tone down the sexy, flirty villain thing because it grates imo. I'd like her to be sarcastic, ruthless and goal-driven. I think the actress can do it because I liked her in 3x07 but now the character is going into campy territory.

Sorry for this rant. Back to Iris' PoV, I doubt we'll get much. Iris will just accept that her fiance is the one who kills her in the future because giving her a PoV on this means acknowledging that WA is abusive and you have to remember that we're supposed to forget that. They're getting married after all, we have to fangirl over that
I expect Iris to give Barry another pep talk on why he'll never become Savitar because she believes in his goodness, blah blah blah. If only she could pep talk Savitar as well, maybe she'll obliterate him from existence

This is funny because it would make Reverse Flash more of a hero than Barry.

I think he exists because of Flashpoint and that's why the name of the byline changed after Barry undid Flashpoint. The fact is that Savitar said that Flashpoint gave him the means to escape so who knows?

Summer Falls

So much valid questions

bonnie51

true and i have a hunch he will be a time remmant so that way he's barry, but not barry, sort of. i think. i don't know.

see, that's my question. because if that changed the future, then wouldn't cisco not losing his hands also have changed the future? unless there's going to be part two of KF vs. vibe - but even if there was, he's NOT losing his hands so i would think that would change the future too.

yes, on the headache. maybe ... i don't know. maybe savitar is from a different time line? who knows... hopefully the show does but i'm not sure right now.

good lord, yes. the first time top got him, ok, i guess. but to literally have the same thing happen right away again? seriously?

and yeah, the gorilla thing was largely a disappointment to me. not sure what i was expecting but it feel flat to me.

i will say, even as someone whose not always a fan... the writing for them needs to get better. they're not doing themselves, the characters or the show any favors with how they are writing them right now. perhaps the show doesn't care, idk, but it needs to get better.

agree but at the same time... the flirty, sexy part was part of her comic gimic.

could it be toned down? absolutely.but at the same time...it was part of her comic personality. i don't want it to over shadow the powers or rationale of the character, etc, though. i would have it be as an accessory to the character, not have it define the character itself. which i'm pretty sure they will not do.

as an aside, saw an interview where apparently savitar gave KF her outfit and was just hanging onto it and waiting for her to emerge or got it for her, lol...how considerate.

but in all seriousness, i am glad that we will eventually see KF and saviBarry interact without the suit, because i am curious as to what that partnership of sorts is based on. just causing chaos and being villains together? a distraction? what?

i started wondering if it might be barry when future KF said that she and savitar made a hell of a team and it was somewhat of a throw back to caitlain-barry and "we're quite the pair" in season one. that was really the first time i thought it might be some form of barry.

see, with really good writing, this could turn into a really interesting arc. the idea that some time int he future a version of barry would try to kill her and apparently, succeed.

i do think they will just gloss over it, defeat savitar by magic or stupidity or both - wally, jessie and jay probably show up, caitlain takes over and kicks out killer frost and the troll and chipmunk armies arrive...

and they will continue on as if nothing ever happened with barry/iris. i do fear you are right on that one.

lol, probably true, but good lord, enough with the pep talks. barry just gave himself a pep talk in he last episode. that should tell you where we're at as a show, where characters are giving themselves pep talks and you have another character promoting a book on pep talks.

this might be the mopiest bunch of sexy, young people who are really smart and or super powered in the history of mankind. earth. the universe. just saying. if i looked that good, in my what, mid to late 20's?... had money, a job that was exciting and surrounded by people i loved and was in some cases, in love? i wouldn't look so damn glum.




i know... but i just wonder. because that would certainly give different context to why he came back in time originally... it'd be really interesting potentially if done right but i know that's not going to happen either.

true... i just am tired of flash point. the only thing i'm grateful for is KF... the rest of it is just becoming tideous with all the references... at this point I expect barry after defeating savitar with the help of Alvin and Co to run back to the past to prevent last seasons barry from running back to the past to prevent eobard from killing his mother in the past.

my head hurts again




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and is it wrong that i might find the facial scars... uh... almost attractive lol.... not that i have a problem with grant's face, haha... i don't know. its weird. don't judge me.

FireQueen

I guess so.

I understand but I'm just not a fan. Maybe I wouldn't have liked it that much in the comics either? Anyway, this isn't a huge problem. With the poor character development this show has, Killer Frost's personality is at the bottom of the list of complaints.

Speaking of comics, I'd take villainous Barry from the comics over this crap with Savitar. At least I would have been spared the Barry kills the love of his life crap.

And isn't Savitar Indian in the comics? They have erased a PoC for a lame plot twist that is a subtle way to pander to the racists/haters that want Iris to die in the worst way possible. It's better if I do not overthink this. I feel nauseous

Yeah, I think I'll pass. After the writers ruined WA I'm not in the mood for a SaviBarry/Killer Frost possible flirtation. Way to rub salt in the wound, writers!

To be fair, most of them have lost family members and their friends/LIs are half-dead so I get why they are the way they are. It's just exhausting to watch when it goes on for seasons.

The EPs have said that Iris will eventually have more to do and she and Barry will be a team. Too bad I think they're lying/exaggerating.

It's okay. The scars are cool

MyzButterfly

I don't have all the answers nor explanations to say that WA is abusive. I don't know enough to call it abuse before having all the facts. So far, I can't call it that. At all.

If Savitar created himself and thinks of himself as a god, and is future flash yet Iris has to die for him to exist, but the future then changes and Barry doesn't turn into Savitar who then doesn't end up killing Iris... I need to stop while I'm ahead at this point.

I think the writers want us to think that Barry saves Iris from impending doom, which in turn has Iris saving Barry from his impending future. I think that in their minds, it's another notch on their love story.

I'm frustrated trying to figure this out in a way that makes any type of sense. I think the writers wanted shock regardless of how it would affect the characters and the couple.

bonnie51

i know he was in at least one version, in another version i saw online he was some white guy with blonde hair. not sure where that was from. the one i am most familiar with he was... of course, the morons/racists also claim to use casting in their argument. in some ways, perhaps the show can't win. which is a damn shame that we are here in 2017 and its like we're still in the dark ages in many, many ways. disappointed with where we are at, but not totally surprised.

i understand... but i'm not expecting that to happen, tbh. maybe it does, idk. i don't know if i even want it, tbh. because its just random. sure, i'm a sucker for DP and GG interacting more but .... i need more than just savibarry showing up and that happening. i'd need some kind of pov where i understand... given that for the last two seasons there's been nothing even remotely for the most part...it'd just be more trolling and random and out of no where...and while the writers and CW are pros at the trolling etc... i'll pass. maybe if savibarry was sticking around or somehow hey were going to do a spinoff where barry was evil and grant was somehow going to be on both shows, then ok. but as it stands on the flash right now... i don't really care for that either, without a pov of the why / how / etc... i don't like it when things are just thrown at me without some form of explanation. i don't need them to write a book, but don't give me blank pages.

and i don't even really want the pov tbh because there are enough people as already discussed that don't get enough pov time, i don't need the pov for that and therefore, i don't really need to see it either. i wouldn't throw the remote at the tv... but i'd rather just have them planning or talking and its more about his plan or what he specifically needs her for, etc... i would take that over any kind of flirting / banter. i can live in the world of my mind or maybe a fanfic somewhere for the other stuff.

i get that... and that's true enough but its ALL of them All the time. i get there being loss and trauma and everything, etc... but it shouldn't be the entire cast. they should be some kind of balance.


sadly, i doubt they are going to. if they have not done it by now... then i don't know that they are going to. it sucks having the show promise and promise and then it just... doesn't. or does it kind of half-a**.

thanks, lol.

part of me wishes there was a way that savibarry stuck around and popped up for 5-6 episodes a season or that was the cross over and KF would take off over there etc....


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and i mean, i've seen people saying that we need tracy to stick around and be part of the time and i'm just... um... no.

FireQueen

"Abusive" is a pretty loaded term but I just can't wrap my head around any version of Barry killing Iris. They keep showing Iris' death in every episode and knowing that Barry is under the suit hurts

Of course, if WA is abusive then Barry is a villain. Since the show needs to portray Barry as a hero, then WA can't be abusive

I agree that in their minds this may reinforce WA as true love but who knows how they'll explain it? I just don't trust the showrunners.

The show can win, it just doesn't want to.

It would be trolling but the SB fandom has accepted all the bones they've thrown at them. Maybe they won't kiss but they'll show some sort of tension a la Zoom/Black Siren? I think it could happen because DP suddenly remembered that Barry and Caitlin had a "flirtation" in S1. At first I thought she was just pandering to her fans but coupled with what you just told me (Savitar gifting Killer Frost that sexy outfit, etc.) it made me weary.

HR is still happy One out of eight people should account to something

The quirky blonde nerds are a hit with the comic book fandom Patty, S1/S2 Felicity...I have no opinion on Tracy since I must confess I hadn't seen the episode but when they announced the cast I thought "This is future Patty Spivot!". The actress has a cute face but the cast is full of genius scientists. Unless they plan to get rid of someone else, I don't need her to stay.

bonnie51

that was why I speculated about it being malcomn thawne... that way it's still the shock value of seeing it be "barry" but then it turns out to be his win who despises barry for getting everything he didn't, etc... so it'd make sense. and it'd even make more sense imo for him to want killer frost around since really... this savibarry is basically intent on destroying everything from his previous life that was good that he loved - iris, his family, his friends, etc... everything.

but with how they did the story, that's not possible since malcolm wouldn't have the memories, etc. you'd have the shock of it appearing to be barry, but not have the implications of having barry kill iris. because that's a hard thing o fathom that once this is over the show will move on like nothing happened and i'll see that image in my mind of savitar killing her.

haven't trusted them for a while. they say pretty things... but don't deliver, most of the time. unless its barry and his bromances.

fair enough, i won't though. might it be a nice scene? sure. maybe. idk. but its out of no where... maybe if savibarry had been revealed earlier in the season and again, there was some kind of brief explanation of why he was intent on having killer frost emerge... but nope, we got random idiots in hoods mumbling about it.

i think that's just his default setting

its just grating when it looks like everyone needs a damn hug and couch time every episode.

exactly. i don't need another scientist and i definetely don't need another patty.

HR's love life can happen off screen. i hate that we are in season three, don't have fully developed characters or their PoV and are just bringing in new characters to fill up screen time that we don't have to spare.

the last couple episodes imo are some of the better ones i've seen in a while...
but they could have been better with some changes.


1) maybe even just letting iris investigate who tracy is and where she is. something small but letting her do something.

2) why did wally choose now to go see jessie? killer frost is running around town, savitar is around, etc... and he goes now? i get wanting to spend time with your GF wally, but timing man... timing...

3) savibarry... dude... TRACY WAS LITERALLY RIGHT FREAKING THERE. snap her neck then get KF. or the other way around. if barry can run thru time and not seem like he was ever gone, surely, you, the supposed god of speed, can pull that off.....

not to mention... since you knew where she was....WTF did you have to do that was better than killing her yourself? i mean, a better plan would have been to send killer frost to distract barry and cisco, occupy them, and then catch HR and Tracy trying to sneak away. wham bam, thank you ma'am.

MyzButterfly

This is also a show from the showrunners' perspective, where Barry doesn't ever need to compliment the love of his life or where Iris isn't allowed to actually react to her reality. The show centers on the guys. The female characters must all revolve around them and their feelings. "Barry you're so handsome, you're my hero, you are a good guy, you, you, you..."

Just like this isn't about how Iris will feel about who Savitar is, it's really about making sure Barry isn't vilified. I don't know how we're supposed to get that image of Iris being stabbed out of our heads though.

Joe and Barry had a ton more scenes that Joe has had with Iris, the daughter who's supposed to lose her life. See what I mean?

I'm glad next week is supposed to be a lighter eppy. We need it.

Regarding Tracy, I liked her interaction with HR but it only made me wish the actress was hired to play Caitlin at the beginning so we could have gotten that interaction throughout.

I think this show can be great, they choose not to be. And they won't change it to be better.

FireQueen

^ You think the showrunners are self-inserting with Barry?

I resent Tracy's presence because Barry was supposed to build the trap. Barry is a genius but can't invent anything? He always needs someone else to do the work for him? It was bad enough when Cisco was the one who came up with all the gadgets, now they had to introduce a woman scientist so she can build the trap and flirt with HR? Man, they love to dumb Barry down!

MyzButterfly

LMAO I'm literally LOL!! I don't think they sense the importance of these details whereas IMO the details matter.


Let's all have a moment of silence for S1's Barry, the scientist. That Barry has departed The Flash a while ago.