sourburst

sourburst

So strange to see a BTS after how menacing it was

PhoenixRising

And this I don't agree with. This was an arrangement between Claire and Frank that Claire actually wanted, as long as Frank was discreet. And Frank getting drunk in that one scene does not mean he's an alcoholic. I've gotten plastered when I was upset once, and I'm not an alcoholic. Was Frank shown getting hammered in any other scenes? No, and that one scene was a party for Claire's graduation. And Frank not leaving was actually a decent thing to do. You'd think a man would get props for not running out on a pregnant wife.

Well, since this is the Frank thread, I'll just repost here what I had already posted in the episode discussion thread.

I just want to say that I in no way mean to delegitimize Claire and Jamie; I understand why they love each other and why they end up together. But I do think that Frank has been on the receiving end of a lot of unfair criticism, and even Diana Gabaldon herself wrote an essay called "In Defense of Frank Randall" to set the record straight. When the writer of the books tries to tell everyone they're overreacting, one would expect Frank to get cut a little slack.

First of all, I don't think Frank found happiness until he met Sandy, and that's the woman he intended to marry, but he died before that could happen. Second, Frank never did anything to himself. Frank isn't the one who was responsible for Claire going through those stones at Craigh na Dun, and none of what happened afterwards was Frank's choice. And third, Frank wasn't stubborn, he was loyal and honorable. He was dealing with an impossible situation and had to do the best he could. He did the right thing.

Whenever I hear people say, "Frank just should've divorced Claire," I feel that they're looking at the situation through modern, 21st century eyes and not putting things into context. Many people have defended Jamie's beating of Claire when she ran off by pointing out that Jamie was just a man of his time and that it was the way things were back then. Well the same holds true for Frank. He could not simply divorce Claire because this was 1948. Abandoning a pregnant wife was just something men didn't do, even if the child was someone else's. And on top of that, Frank was British, so it would've been very dishonorable to leave Claire to fend for herself. Being a single, unmarried woman raising a child alone was far more difficult back then than it is now. An unmarried single mother in 1948 was extremely rare; most were widows who had lost their husbands in World War II, and Frank had seen how difficult it was for them.

Because Frank stayed with Claire, they were able to find a new home in America, Claire was able to study medicine at Harvard and pursue her dream of being a doctor, and Brianna was able to have a happy, stable home and childhood, as well as getting the best education possible so she could grow up into the well-rounded, independent, intelligent, and beautiful young woman she is, and a lot of that was Frank's influence on her. She got to have two parents who loved her and never felt abandoned or alone. And most importantly, Claire would never have found out that Jamie had survived the Battle of Culloden were it not for Frank's inquiries once they were in Boston, so she would know to go back for him. None of that would've happened if Frank had divorced Claire and left her in England to raise Brianna alone.

Also, Frank simply couldn't leave Claire because he still loved her. While Claire was off having her romantic adventure with Jamie, Frank was back in the 1940's, mourning Claire and not knowing if she were dead or alive, or if she had run off with another man. Claire had Jamie, but Frank was mostly alone, and when Claire showed up back in the present day a couple of years later, it's not like Frank could just turn off his love for his wife, any more than Claire could shut off her love for Jamie. So divorcing Claire was simply not an option. Frank was the one whose life was ruined when Claire went through those stones, and Frank was the one who had been brokenhearted and humiliated when his wife returned from the 16th century pregnant by another man. Frank was a good, kind, decent man who had been dealt a very bad hand and did the best he could to make things better. In fact, Frank was actually doing exactly what Jamie wanted him to do, which was to look after Claire and Brianna and keep them safe, and Jamie even told Claire that he trusted Frank to do so. I admire Jamie for that as well, knowing that Frank was someone he could rely on, sight unseen, going only by what Claire had told him about Frank.

And even after it became clear to Frank that Claire would never forget about Jamie, he still couldn't leave because by then he had become Brianna's father and loved her dearly. He didn't want to end up being a long-distance father who barely ever saw his daughter. Again, back in the 1950's this sort of thing didn't happen often, and Frank had seen what had happened to other fathers who did go through that. He waited until Brianna was a grown adult rather than rip apart Brianna's family when she was still a child. And remember, at 18 years of age, Brianna is a legal adult and free to do as she wishes. Frank no longer had any custody over her couldn't make her go with him if she chose not to, nor would he. Instead he was going to leave it up to Brianna to decide what she wanted to do. I think it was decent that Frank stayed with Claire until Brianna was a legal adult instead of trying to leave her when Brianna was still a child and engage in a custody battle, which would've only done more damage.

And yes, I do feel sympathy for Frank. I feel sorry for him that he couldn't even make love to his wife without her closing her eyes and imagining that she was with Jamie. I know that anyone in a similar situation would feel exactly the same way he did. I feel sorry that he never did get to end his life with a wife who truly loved him and instead died in a car accident before that could happen. I feel sorry that it was only after he was dead that Claire stood over his body, kissed him, and confessed that she did love him and that he was her first love, even though that love wasn't strong enough to pull her back through time to him because what she felt for Jamie turned out to be so much stronger. That, and Black Jack Randall's goons dragging her away from the stones before she got the chance. But Frank did right by Claire and Brianna. He made sure they were safe and taken care of, gave Claire the chance to become a doctor, and gave Brianna a real home and family. Additionally, he was the one who made it possible for Claire to reunite with Jamie later on by asking Reverend Wakefield for information on Jamie's whereabouts after Culloden.

But mostly I feel sorry for Frank because he's been on the receiving end of so much animosity that he does not, nor has not ever deserved, because Frank never did anything wrong other than not being Jamie Fraser. Again, I'm not saying that Claire and Jamie shouldn't have ended up together because it's clear to see why they do. And like Frank, Jamie Fraser is an honorable man who deserves to be reunited with Claire. But Frank Randall was a tragic, sympathetic character who did the best he could in an impossibly difficult situation, and Frank deserved a lot better than he ever got. He deserved to have his own happy ending, and it's a shame he never got his chance.

girl under the floor

Can't it be both though?

I think I agree with about everything you said there.
Yes, it's tragic. It's a horrible situation he was in. And I totally feel for Frank. I've felt for Frank all along and I felt for him right until the very bitter end. I hated how it ended for him. That he thought he had found love (again) and could spend the rest of his life with a woman who loves him too. I'm so sad he didn't get that.

But. That doesn't mean I agree with his actions.
He should not have invited his mistress over to the house. Open relationship or not, that's a no to me personally. And even if he would choose to do that, if he thought Claire would leave at 6, his mistress showed at 6.15. He maybe could've given it a bit more time between those two things. I mean, a 15 minute bridge isn't all that much.

And then telling Claire he wanted to go to England and take Brianna. Yes, Brianna was 18, she could choose if she wanted to, but Brianna adored Frank and he knew it. I do not blame Claire one bit for taking it as a threat.

And despite the fact that yes, Claire went away and came back pregnant from another man, she did tell him all of that. She told him and he chose to believe her. I totally appreciate the fact that he couldn't leave her because 1) he loved her and 2) it just wasn't done those days. I totally appreciate that.
But they agreed to be discrete, he wasn't.
When Claire offered up the idea of a divorce, he could've chosen to go with that. This is arguable of course, differing on one's POV, but to me, at that moment, Frank didn't really have reason to not believe Claire that she'd make sure Frank would still get to see Brianna. Also, no matter she already didn't like Frank at that moment any more, I think Claire still wanted a father for Brianna so I don't think she would've kept Brianna from Frank.


See, I even agree with this:
But to me, this is a fault of/from a large part of the fandom, not of the show.
I don't think the show is / ever was anti-Frank. I think the show has done a great job in portraying Frank's pain and struggles.
Apart from a very few moments, there haven't even been times where I really didn't like Frank, right up until this episode

I am keeping in mind the times and circumstances they are in, I am!
But I was one of those fans who never made excuses for Jamie for hitting Claire. That was his time, fine, I still don't like it and I'm sure as heck never going to defend him for it.
And I'm not gonna excuse Frank's actions either
Yes, I appreciate the time he was in. Yes, I'm really happy he chose to stay with Claire, but in the end, it was that: a choice. He could've made another choice.

sourburst

Once again, Paula hits the nail on the head I agree with everything you've said i have the same point of view too.

girl under the floor

Thanks Jade

girl under the floor

And that little hug

sourburst

You're welcome

sourburst

Brothers from another mother

wickedrum

I don't want to argue so I'm staying out of it

sourburst

Argue with what, Rita?

wickedrum

well, you guys say that you like Frank, but some of your opinions show that you wear the Jamie bias glasses. I know you don't notice, but I do.

girl under the floor

Well, Rita, I for one love a good discussion
So I'll totally respect it if you want to stay out of it, but I would love reading your opinion

sourburst

I believe I haven't mentioned Jamie in my responses on the F/C situation in the episode discussion thread? Not entirely sure how that means I'm Jamie bias?

wickedrum

you don't have to mention him, the predilection acts subconsciously in the mind