lisagslack14

sourburst uou did not answer my question I neeed to know if it is alright for me to post it yet, Or if should wait.

sourburst

I think it's a case of sticking to Guest Stars for now. A lot of Guest Characters threads have gone redundant because of the lack of posters. I'm in the process of merging quite a few into it such as Dougal and Geillis etc.

http://www.fanforum.com/f448/extras-.../#post90651100

lisagslack14

Cool and that is why I asked first.

PhoenixRising

I'm actually glad that Frank doesn't have to suffer anymore and that this part of the story is over, although I do feel sad that he never found his happiness or his happy ending. And I disagree, I think that Frank is a tragic and sympathetic character who was put in an impossible situation. Frank did nothing wrong in his relationship with Claire before she went back in time, and after she came back he had to deal with things as best as he could. I found this article that sums it up.

‘Outlander’ season 3, episode 3: In defense of Frank Randall - MarketWatch

sourburst

He found happiness in the women he was with and then when he found one to marry. Don't feel sorry for him because he did it to himself. He stayed with Claire even though he knew she'd been with someone else. He opted to stay with her anyway.She offered him a way out after she saw he was unhappy with her, but happy with someone else, he didn't want it. So don't feel bad for him His stubbornness was his downfall until his death. I thought it was sad when he admitted of making her unhappy out of spite though, because Claire had done nothing wrong and didn't have Brienna out of Spite. i also didn't like that he used Brienna as a target either. Not just threatening to take her, but saying she's a constant reminder of Jamie. He obviously should have just left when he had the chance. My love for Frank definitely dwindled here.

I imagine if he'd left Claire and had his custardy rights to Brienne as promised, he'd have married his new lover and possibly gave Brienna a sibling.

Red Dragon

PhoenixRising - yes, that link is a good summary of why Frank has definitely suffered through no fault of his own. My point is just that Claire is not the only victim here. They are both flawed individuals and this last episode definitely made me feel sympathy for the last 20-ish years of Frank's life. (I've also felt plenty of sympathy for Claire for the same time period in the past as well)

It's hard to believe that Tobias won't be on this show anymore (unless there are flashbacks I guess). How will this show ever be the same? He has been such a constant presence through one character or another.

sourburst

No one has painted Claire as a victim.

Red Dragon

Maybe 'victim' is the wrong word...I mean that she is somewhat at the mercy of her circumstances. That although she has made mistakes, she didn't do anything to deserve the sadness and difficulty in her life (in relation to Jamie). I see Frank the same way. And I know you maybe disagree with that, lol. We can just agree to disagree on him!

sourburst

I like Frank, he's a great character, but you're right I don't agree with any of the sympathy he seems to be getting in this episode.

girl under the floor

Wow, I really wasn't a fan of Frank this episode.

If the show would be anti-Frank, they'd portray him like this all the time.
I've felt for him the first two episodes of this season (and the first two seasons). I felt for Frank and while I felt that sometimes he went over the line a bit, I didn't fault him for it, because I felt for and with him. I could understand where he was coming from.
But this episode I was definitely pro-Claire and not liking him.
Yes, it was clear that Claire still was / wanted to be with Jamie. But then Frank could've walked away. They should've divorced

I totally believe Claire has loved Frank until the end, even if it didn't show. It was just on another level. But I don't think she actually ever stopped loving him.

I'll be sad not to see Tobias any more though

I really LOVED John Grey
Great actor! He portrayed it so well!

I think I'll end up thinking of every episode as a filler until Claire and Jamie reunite
And this is not just about the fact that I want my ship together on screen, it's that the story is about them. And they do belong together on screen. Something's missing for me now. I'm not attached to the episodes, it's not pulling me in.

sourburst

^ I felt like I was backed into a corner Glad there's another pro Claire!

Lord John Grey was my favourite in this episode. I'm so looking forward to more of him!

girl under the floor

Well, I'm not always pro-Claire and I'm definitely not anti-Frank, but I really didn't like him this episode

sourburst

^That's the case I've been trying to make We have unpopular opinions. He reminded me too much of how vindictive my mom used to be with my dad (eventually they split.)

PhoenixRising

By the way, did anyone else get the idea that this "white witch" that prisoner mentioned might be Geillis/Gillian? I wouldn't put it past that crazy hippie to still be alive. She'd have the 20th century knowledge to be considered a witch by 16th century folk.

Well, thanks, Jade. But once again, I must respectfully disagree. And I just want to say that I in no way mean to delegitimize Claire and Jamie; I understand why they love each other and why they end up together. But I do think that Frank has been on the receiving end of a lot of unfair criticism, and even Diana Gabaldon herself wrote an essay called "In Defense of Frank Randall" to set the record straight. When the writer of the books tries to tell everyone they're overreacting, one would expect Frank to get cut a little slack.

First of all, I don't think Frank found happiness until he met Sandy, and that's the woman he intended to marry, but he died before that could happen. Second, Frank never did anything to himself. Frank isn't the one who was responsible for Claire going through those stones at Craigh na Dun, and none of what happened afterwards was Frank's choice. And third, Frank wasn't stubborn, he was loyal and honorable. He was dealing with an impossible situation and had to do the best he could. He did the right thing.

Whenever I hear people say, "Frank just should've divorced Claire," I feel that they're looking at the situation through modern, 21st century eyes and not putting things into context. Many people have defended Jamie's beating of Claire when she ran off by pointing out that Jamie was just a man of his time and that it was the way things were back then. Well the same holds true for Frank. He could not simply divorce Claire because this was 1948. Abandoning a pregnant wife was just something men didn't do, even if the child was someone else's. And on top of that, Frank was British, so it would've been very dishonorable to leave Claire to fend for herself. Being a single, unmarried woman raising a child alone was far more difficult back then than it is now. An unmarried single mother in 1948 was extremely rare; most were widows who had lost their husbands in World War II, and Frank had seen how difficult it was for them.

Because Frank stayed with Claire, they were able to find a new home in America, Claire was able to study medicine at Harvard and pursue her dream of being a doctor, and Brianna was able to have a happy, stable home and childhood, as well as getting the best education possible so she could grow up into the well-rounded, independent, intelligent, and beautiful young woman she is, and a lot of that was Frank's influence on her. She got to have two parents who loved her and never felt abandoned or alone. And most importantly, Claire would never have found out that Jamie had survived the Battle of Culloden were it not for Frank's inquiries once they were in Boston, so she would know to go back for him. None of that would've happened if Frank had divorced Claire and left her in England to raise Brianna alone.

Also, Frank simply couldn't leave Claire because he still loved her. While Claire was off having her romantic adventure with Jamie, Frank was back in the 1940's, mourning Claire and not knowing if she were dead or alive, or if she had run off with another man. Claire had Jamie, but Frank was mostly alone, and when Claire showed up back in the present day a couple of years later, it's not like Frank could just turn off his love for his wife, any more than Claire could shut off her love for Jamie. So divorcing Claire was simply not an option. Frank was the one whose life was ruined when Claire went through those stones, and Frank was the one who had been brokenhearted and humiliated when his wife returned from the 16th century pregnant by another man. Frank was a good, kind, decent man who had been dealt a very bad hand and did the best he could to make things better. In fact, Frank was actually doing exactly what Jamie wanted him to do, which was to look after Claire and Brianna and keep them safe, and Jamie even told Claire that he trusted Frank to do so. I admire Jamie for that as well, knowing that Frank was someone he could rely on, sight unseen, going only by what Claire had told him about Frank.

And even after it became clear to Frank that Claire would never forget about Jamie, he still couldn't leave because by then he had become Brianna's father and loved her dearly. He didn't want to end up being a long-distance father who barely ever saw his daughter. Again, back in the 1950's this sort of thing didn't happen often, and Frank had seen what had happened to other fathers who did go through that. He waited until Brianna was a grown adult rather than rip apart Brianna's family when she was still a child. And remember, at 18 years of age, Brianna is a legal adult and free to do as she wishes. Frank no longer had any custody over her couldn't make her go with him if she chose not to, nor would he. Instead he was going to leave it up to Brianna to decide what she wanted to do. I think it was decent that Frank stayed with Claire until Brianna was a legal adult instead of trying to leave her when Brianna was still a child and engage in a custody battle, which would've only done more damage.

And yes, I do feel sympathy for Frank. I feel sorry for him that he couldn't even make love to his wife without her closing her eyes and imagining that she was with Jamie. I know that anyone in a similar situation would feel exactly the same way he did. I feel sorry that he never did get to end his life with a wife who truly loved him and instead died in a car accident before that could happen. I feel sorry that it was only after he was dead that Claire stood over his body, kissed him, and confessed that she did love him and that he was her first love, even though that love wasn't strong enough to pull her back through time to him because what she felt for Jamie turned out to be so much stronger. That, and Black Jack Randall's goons dragging her away from the stones before she got the chance. But Frank did right by Claire and Brianna. He made sure they were safe and taken care of, gave Claire the chance to become a doctor, and gave Brianna a real home and family. Additionally, he was the one who made it possible for Claire to reunite with Jamie later on by asking Reverend Wakefield for information on Jamie's whereabouts after Culloden.

But mostly I feel sorry for Frank because he's been on the receiving end of so much animosity that he does not, nor has not ever deserved, because Frank never did anything wrong other than not being Jamie Fraser. Again, I'm not saying that Claire and Jamie shouldn't have ended up together because it's clear to see why they do. And like Frank, Jamie Fraser is an honorable man who deserves to be reunited with Claire. But Frank Randall was a tragic, sympathetic character who did the best he could in an impossibly difficult situation, and Frank deserved a lot better than he ever got. He deserved to have his own happy ending, and it's a shame he never got his chance.

sourburst

This has never crossed my mind. I think they meant Claire, never doubted it. Jamie's and Claire's music played as he told of the white witch and when Claire was at french court, she admitted she was indeed a witch, but a white witch, La Dame Blanche.