SydneyO

^Exactly. Do people realize how ridiculous they sound when they say Iris is replacing Caitlin. Iris West is the female lead and the matriarch of the flash family, she's suppose to get more screen time and focus than a supporting character. But for some reason Caitlin fans feel that she should be given more importance than Iris.

Caitlin's lack of screen time/character development shouldn't even be compared to iris but instead with Cisco. They're both part of the main cast, supporting characters, and were here from the start... yet he has more development than Caitlin.

But you won's see them talking about that...have to find a way to blame Iris for everything

SkyStillBlue

Thank-you!! It's so problematic on so many different levels!! 100% Caitlin and Cisco are on par - both supporting characters.

Would anyone say ANYTHING if Cisco got stuff vibing and Barry did more science CSI stuff. "With Cisco stuck in his vibe dream now we get to see more of Barry the scientist, he's doing more science stuff in his lab" would anyone say ANYTHING?

I stated in the other thread how narratively it was Jesse who took her "role" from 2x19 and Henry in 2x21 but no-one is up their butt. Iris is treated like the female lead and all of a sudden it's time to crucify people.

SydneyO

They wont focus on Henry and Jesse replacing Caitlin and Cisco being more developed because they're not really angry at that. It all boils down to SnowBarry being squashed. Simple as that.

bonnie51

yes, because someone whose around for ... what, 2 episodes now...was Henry in star labs in 2x19? oh. wait. no, he wasn't. or even on the show most of the season? well, no, wait, he wasn't.

and was jessie awake and conscious in 2x21? oh. no. wait, she wasn't. and she was locked in a time vault for part of 2x20. with wally and on one else. but yeah... and she left the show for a few episodes. and had zero seconds of screen time during those episodes. and maybe had 30 seconds of screen time in an episode before she was rescued in the earth two episodes. but yeah, clearly, she's the most to blame. because...


but oh well. never mind that they've been in prison, off screen, on another earth or unconscious more often than not. but everyone's entitled to their opinion.

and why would should people about Cisco being developed? because that shows good writing and balance? and he needs to be developed? which is not happening with Caitlin being reduced.

and it all boils down to SB? I'd say for a lot for you it all boils down to Iris and you can't don't really care about Caitlin - which is fine and your right as viewer and frankly the way she's been written and developed is not surprising really - but Im the one who threw that shade first either -

I'd rather there be a good relationship with two well characters , etc, and let both be on screen in the same episode and have more to do but that's not the direction the show has gone in.

Stelena&Bamon

^^^ This!

Entitled and priveleged.

SuitUp

You were complaining from 2.19 when Iris helped patch him up (like his injured body belongs to Caitlin or something) and the "Suit or no suit" was stolen from Caitlin's line. I'm sure if I searched the CB thread I could even quote you saying that. So this whole Kevin's quote thing, I'm not believing it. Iris is the Snowbarry scapegoat. Rage against her for a crackship not being more important than an actual canon relationship.

I'm ok with Iris and Caitlin being friends but I don't want any excuse for hatred towards Iris because her and Barry are in love and Caitlin supports it as both their friends. If that's the case then no to Snowest for me.

bonnie51

I had another long post typed up, showed some previous post from 2x19 episode and from SB thread. Post 96 and 94 - etc. but here's a little bit of real rage in an attempt to illustrate my point.

you want to make it personal? fine. but I'll not have my character or values challenged by an internet moniker.. God forbid that someone has a different favorite character than you and dislikes how they are treated on a television show. and then states as such -admittedly, repeatedly. often the last few episodes. largely, though in forums, that include that character's name.

and believe or not had written that we were clearly never going to agree and it was pointless to continue. and despite differences had largely found it somewhat beneficial because I do believe people should be able to express different points of views, loudly, repeatedly, without having their character attacked... but next season

and what makes that worse to me, is that its a very real problem.. and even more sadly, I don't know if its ever going to change. you are certainly more than free to not believe me as I'm sure you do - but I do it hope it does. and you'll never believe me, I know you stated as such and that's fine but I am compelled for myself to say that its never been about what you not so subtly implied with your post. at least for me As I said, I know you won't believe me and that's fine because I know who and what I am - and what I'm not. I'm an flawed overweight person with debt, a with a love of good television, history of picking the wrong ship and apparently picking the wrong character to like and complain about loudly and about being passionate about one of their favorite characters and their diminishing role that has happened. and that yes, the lead character has benefited - indirectly, directly, etc - from.

so thank you for showing me that you can't have disagreements, arguments, conversations, differences of opinion -yes, loudly, yes, repeatedly, yes, often, - because as I'm sure this you'll believe I'm also an incredibly stubborn person - without being linked to arguably the ugliest thing that has plagued the history of mankind since the beginning of time and will likely haunt us until the end of time.


and for the record, to bring it back to the show just for a moment .... Jessie does play a very real risk to Caitlin's possible lack of development... but that takes place more likely in Season 3 where they are going to want to develop Jessie's powers and story line moving forward. this was an introductory to Jessie, where in moments she took on a role and was set up as a down the road replacement for Caitlin as the science nerd or a science nerd in Season 3, etc... especially if they did KF... but so much this season because she hasn't been on screen that long this season. If you took out her time not interacting with Wells or Wally in Star Labs ... Jessie's impact is minimal. This season. Next season is a very different story in regards to Jessie impacting Caitlin

Stelena&Bamon

Imma stop you right there. There was nothing "personal" about it. I barely read the comments below aside from SkyStillBlue that's why I quoted it.

And I do concur, people getting the hump when the WOC female lead shafts the supporting white female is a form of entitlement and privilege.

If you're one of those fans getting the hump. As is life ya know. We are clearly not on the same page. We don't have to be. I'm not trying twist your arm.

bonnie51

1st, I did not mean to offend you. I should have it clear who I was referencing. It was the OP who made the comment not so much yourself. That 100% is on me, so I apologize for making you think I was addressing you directly. my fault.

second, again as I said before, you all can not believe - and very sadly, for good reason because I do know that there are people butt hurt about that - but while I am very passionate about this subject, its never been about WOC for me.

and I guess I can understand maybe I can understand where the OP is coming because it is a real problem and I can be very loud and as I noted, I am incredibly stubborn. There is part of me that likes a good argument. and because of that sometimes, to my own detriment perhaps, I have a tendency to get louder and repeat similar posts. I probably don't do myself any favors with that either. as I said, I am flawed.

but that did offend me, regardless. i will not say i was blameless, because I wasn't. because i could have stopped posting, taken more of a time out as I did for a while and then tried again. so that's again on me.

whats not on me is the implication in that post. because while its very real and very disturbing that people had a problem with CP being cast initially and everything else, that's never been me and god willing, never will be.

that is what i took personally and offense to my character about. i apologize again for not being more direct about who I was referencing -

and I'll even say perhaps I misread about the OP was saying. maybe they weren't implying what I perceived them to be. we don't read things the same way obviously and if that is the case, then that is my fault as well. but if it what was being referrenced, then I am too proud of a person sadly to let that go. and yes, that's another flaw.

i have been and always will be passionate about Caitlin / DP because after all thats how I first got hooked into the show. I never watched Glee - knew Jessie from Law and Order etc... but didn't know a lot of the cast. But they have won me over. But I will always defend Dani and Caitlin - perhaps not as loudly but that's not going to change. Just as I wouldn't expect someone's loyalty or dedication to Iris / CP to change.




^^^

and since I do not want to double post I will attempt to clarify and change the fact.

My frustration has never been about Iris getting more screen time. I've said a few times below that it was always going to happen, needed to happen. Furthermore, I like the dynamic better there when Iris is at Star Labs because its more human, less sciency and a little more fun. it was about the fact that yes i feel there is some denial about whose benefited from Caitlin's abscence but my primary that I likely failed to make in my argument is about Caitlin.

She is such a poorly written too date that I take offense not because it was Iris but because she has so little. One of her biggest moments - arguably in season one - was that speech to Barry. likewise, one of the few things she does, is patch him up. so to include both in the same episode, hit a nerve. she has next to nothing outside of star labs. it is as much as the fact that caitlin less unique about her. that's the fault of the writers. doesn't change that IMO Iris has been perhaps the main - though not only - character to have an increased role in her abscence.

and its about the fact that they have two main female characters. int he year 2016. the implication I got from that quote was that when Iris is front and center Caitlin will have less time and when Caitlin is front and center, Iris will have less time. So if they do KF - does that mean Iris is now sidelined? Is this now a Patty 2A situation repeated? That concept if I am right offends me. Because Caitlin being gone should not give Iris anything more to do, because she's Iris West. Likewise, Caitlin being there should not effect Iris. Even if they ever had done SB which this season shows they are clearly not - it should not have gone the route of Patty where Iris was SL for a love interest of Barry's. so it bothers me that in some ways, they won't allow Iris and Caitlin to have large roles in the episode together. because they have two fermale characters who are regulars and that's just sad. instead of them interacting and perhaps having a great friendship I took that quote as an implication that the show, they are competing for screen time with each other. maybe that is not how Kevin Smith meant it. I hope not.

I wasn't happy when Jessie big brain and her 5 majors came in 2x19 and said that she could do that . but I had seen that coming when she was said to be smarter than Wells. I didn't see them reusing much of a season one speech. I didn't see Iris patching up Barry once. that caught me a little off guard and clearly hit a nerve. I have no problem with Iris and Barry having that scene, it makes completely in the story. my problem was with the execution and giving Iris those words. I want the writers to better. they should be able to make Iris be more front and center without feeling the need to have Zoom kidnap Caitlin.

because Caitlin is written is so poorly written that is all she has is Star Labs and those small moments. that's why it hit a nerve and I got so angry and defensive about it. because she has nothing else - even her own kidnapping didn't really effect the rest of the show. Zoom brought her back to earth one and she told her she could leave. So I won't apologize for caring strongly about Caitlin but I will apologize for my role in making the thread perhaps less welcoming, and doing more talking than listening. I blame the writers more using Iris this way and not writing Iris better. She should be able to have an investigate reporter arc before season 3 and for Joe to remember he has a daughter a little bit more IMO etc. so the fault I was trying to assign was not so much Iris as the writers in how they were using Iris and not writing her better in some ways either though there is I think more hope for her moving forward perhaps than Caitlin as the female lead.


my opinion on whether or not it helped Iris because of the way the writers have a hard on for Star Labs has not changed. i do hope my approach in making the argument was better, more explanatory and more clear and well said. and I do that the writers give them chances to interact moving forward - I know DP said she's all for having more GF time on the shows.

my frustration is more with the writing. i did not make that point clearly and that is my fault. its how they are using Iris more than the character and the fact that out of all the characters it was the only regular female actress that was MIA . it bugs me when women are written so poorly. i do hope we can continue to watch the show and all enjoy it and I apologize again for my part if my earlier argument was clearly made and being a stubborn somewhat repetitive poster who should have taken the step back and cool off rather than hit reply. I was more interested in talking at everyone and pounding on the table than listening.

I won't stop posting my opinions - some of which may agree with you and some may not - which is fine. so I won't apologize for a differing opinion but will about I approached it. I saw red and charged when I should have seen yellow as paused to complete my poorly thought out stop light analogy .

FireQueen

Okay, I don't agree that Iris was the one that benefited the most from Caitlin's absence. Iris had one episode where she was allowed to shine and that was 2x21, 2x19 was more about Jesse while Iris stood there finishing other people's sentences and giving Barry car rides. I didn't like that episode at all. It wasn't good for Iris and I expected her to be ridiculed by the fandom which kinda happened. The patching up was such a "blink and you'll miss it" moment that I didn't think people could be that upset about it but it's fine, I have no right to say what should/shouldn't upset fans. The "suit or no suit" line I can understand. Even if all the characters on this show love Barry with or without powers, not just Caitlin, the wording could have been different. Maybe they wanted to make a parallel but can I say that I HATE parallels? I have this pet peeve that my OTPs deserve their special scenes, not recycled lines.

If we're talking about quality screen time Iris hardly benefited from Caitlin's kidnapping since one good episode is not saying much. If we want to talk about quantity then maybe we can agree and it all boils down to this famous obsession the show has with the lab. I tend to prefer quality over quantity so for me 2x21 was the only episode that was really great for Iris (2x20 was good for WA).

Caitlin had zero development while Iris was sidelined during 2A but guess who was the female character with the most airtime? Caitlin! (x) It's all because of the time the show spends at the lab. However, when it comes to storylines Iris wasn't marginalized because of Caitlin but because of Patty, who got time with Iris' BFF/LI, Iris' dad and also got Iris's interest in the meta-humans. In a lot of ways Patty replaced Iris in 2A but Iris is not replacing Caitlin while she's with Zoom. The little that happened in 2X19 is nothing compared to what they took away from Iris and gave to Patty during the first half.

Also, I want to point out that Caitlin has appeared in the Arrow half of the crossovers for two years straight while the female lead barely gets a mention. For me that's more important than patching Barry up for a nanosecond or doing nothing meaningful at S.T.A.R. Labs.

It's probably true that the episodes that showcase Iris the most have very little Caitlin and vice versa but the E-2 episodes are an exception so it's not always either or. Hopefully, the writers can do something similar again.

So glad DP seems to be on board with SnoWest

bonnie51

When I say most, what I refer is the Star Labs. Not character development, etc. Because - and someone could add the minutes and perhaps I'm wrong - I feel like she was there more from 2x19 till now then what would be "normal"

and since for better or for worse, the show has a serious obsession with using Star Labs its primary set piece, the more a character is there, the more likely "involved" they are in what's going. now we're in argreement that they really should focus less on star labs but that;'s how I see Star Labs, etc.

now, it made sense for the story with Iris realizing her feelings for Barry and with Barry so much at star labs it makes perfect sense story wise for her to be there.

and I'll word it this way. my primary issue with that line is this. It reads to me - and I certainly could read it wrong - that the show wanted Caitlin gone to help advance a story line. Which generally is OK - a little lazy IMO - but first first since there's been no actual relationship with Barry/Caitlin that doesn't a ton of sense and secondly, if you're going to have a character removed they way that they did - while maybe not the primary story it should be to me a little more plot centric - it would have been one thing if she had taken a hike for some reason - and thirdly, on principle, write it better. By all means give Iris more to do, but you shouldn't need to remove a character to give her more to do. shows a lack of imagination and balance and good writing to me. advance her with SL with Barry, have her be in star labs more, etc. but you shouldn't have to remove someone in order to feel like as a show you can write the female lead in more potentially. that's the core of this to me, is write it better. You don't have to remove characters to expand on others - unless you lack the balance / creative writing.

i'm not going to convince you all - you're not going to convince me. and that's fine. but at the crux / core of the issue is the show's decision that we're going to remove someone and someone else who do X. and quite frankly its a troubling trend.

when we had Patty, Iris was sidelined in 2A. Now that Wally has come in - and he and Joe are awesome and Barry/Joe are gold to me - we don't have much with Joe and Iris. Every conversation and thought much of this season for Caitlin has been Jay based. Jessie's come in and to some degree Wells interacts some less with the others - which is understandable but goes back to the concept that KS mentioned in that sentence. is that the show has a track record of removing or sidelining or marginalizing characters that troubles me as the universe continues to expand and the cross overs never end.


I agree. With them trying recapture / recreate / create, IDK the right word, Barry/Iris from the comics, again, WRITE IT BETTER. There is boat loads of comic canon source material. There's craploads of shows that have had great lines that you could combine things from. Hallmark cards, whatever.

and they could have a parallel then - even with a different dialogue. because people would have understood what was going on. again, kind of comes down the writing, which at times, is pretty good. but other times....

Fair enough on the quantity over quality, I can see that. I suppose I combined WA with Iris / 2x20 + 2x21 into the same thing in my original argument which should not do. one's a character, one's a ship. so I can give on that and perhaps say quantity

not surprising on the screen time given the show's love of Star Labs no argument that Patty sidelined Iris and that was hard to watch. Though, to use your phrase, that's a quantity issue more than a quality one. I could be wrong but I largely feel like it was more from 2x07 when Grodd took her.

the marginalization is not 100% about a role to me but rather the process. and its my fault for not making clear that its more largely with the show. because the show has literally had dialogue having characters say that they do what Caitlin does and making it a really seemless transition. now, we're obviously agree on the issue of whether or not the character of Iris had been part of that - though not alone - but you've had characters saying literally they could fill that role be shown filling some largely mundane and meaningless role or roles - but some task that Caitlin would have done or potentially taken a larger part in had she been Zoom-napped.

we're not ever agreeing on that part but the underlying issue IMO is the process of it.

Fair point on the cross over. I don't agree about the star labs part - the patching up I'm willing to drop since again, not agreeing on that and that again was more about the patching up+the lines = if it was just one, OK. It was more a combination of events that upset me. but back to star labs you yourself just said Star Labs is incredibly important - rightly or wrongly - so then a character is there more, I don't think its meaningless. Nor do I think what she has is done meaningless.

She gave Barry the pep talk, ventured a little more into their relationship with the you always have someone to come home too, obviously helping to bring him back from the speed force / Girder in 2x21, etc. they might not have all been huge, oh my god moments or episodes for her, but they were important IMO.

the bad writing of lines aside, that was an important in the story of Iris and Barry this season. So was the come home to me and while the speed force could have been done better perhaps, again, it was moment. paving the yellow brick road so to speak. but while they might not stand out in terms of huge moments they've been building blocks to the story of the season and of her and Barry. so i understand what you are saying in that they are not all huge, emotional moments... but I disagree slightly that the time there has been meaningless.

my issues with how they choose to do aside, that is one part of the story I feel like they are doing well. they aren't rushing, they are building I think to a crecendo and been fairly well written minus a hiccup or two. Which I think will last - hopefully - beyond 2x21 - and we'll still a little more of Iris taking charge and being assertive. so again, building blocks. it has taken too long and may not be exactly how we thought we'd see it (reporter arc, etc) but I do feel like they are finally building her up. and I think they are largely do it very well.

True. It would be nice to have that hope but I just... with Supergirl / more cross overs possibly, an expended universe, more people powers, possibly Killer Frost?... I don't know that I see it happening.

agreed. it really is a shame at how little they - or any other female characters get interact.

we get all the bro moments in the world. and many of those are good. but we don't get many - or any really - girl moments

FireQueen

She was there in 2x18 and Caitlin hadn't been kidnapped yet. Also, if that Tumblr post that I linked has to be believed, both Caitlin/Killer Frost and Jesse had more screen time in 2x19 than Iris. Even if we wanted to say quantity trumps quality, Iris would still lose to Caitlin in an episode that has Caitlin absent from the show's favorite set. Plus, Iris had little quality screen time at the lab in 2x19. Nobody can convince me otherwise.

I disagree. The show has too many characters. In order to focus on one character/couple, they need to cut someone else's screen time. It happens and it was Caitlin's turn. Now, we can agree that the show can improve writing-wise but I can't get behind the logic that Caitlin impacts WA and needs to go for WA to happen. Barry never looked twice in Caitlin's direction but somehow it's her absence that helps advance WA? I seriously doubt that's what KS meant. WA was resurrected in 2x16, they had scenes with romantic undertones from 2x16 going forward. It's three episodes with Caitlin at the lab and three episodes with Caitlin absent from the lab.

If one storyline's could be advanced by Caitlin's kidnapping it'd be Caitlin's. This whole thing with Zoom was poorly written but won't be meaningless. It will lead to Killer Frost or something. I could be wrong and maybe they just needed to give Zoom a sounding board for a couple episodes but that's my prediction.

Yes, it's a quantity issue. No, Caitlin had more screen time than Iris in every episode but the premiere and the midseason finale.

She's obviously not a nuisance and doesn't throw off the dynamic but was her presence essential in 2x19/2x20? The romantic scenes with Barry were great and helped build up the love story but she could have given him a pep talk at the lab, at home, at Jitters and on a park bench and nothing would have changed. I repeat, her presence at the lab was essential in 2x21 and when the PA blew up but other than that? Nope, it wasn't.

If time at the lab makes a character meaningful then Caitlin is the winner. She basically spent the entirety of the season but three episodes at the lab so why have we been complaining about the character's treatment since forever?

chacha18

eh, too much drama in this thread. the writers of this show just doesn't do a very good job at developing female characters. a fact i accepted a long time ago.

as a female lead, iris is barely...barely there, her storyline often doesn't impact the flash crew.

as a sidekick, caitlin's screen time becomes less and less, to the point of becoming insignificant at the moment.

such a tragic since i believe both actresses deserve more and better.

Hero of Time

Guys, just a friendly reminder that keeping things civi and agreeing to disagree is the best way to go, ok? Thanks .





i am not uptight!

Wingster

cool gif set