[GrhmLz]

Originally Posted by xthing1x (View Post) But Emma was totally chill with her tearing out a Lost Boy's heart to save Henry, though?

I understand your point but I think this is one of those times where a feeling of disconnect comes into play. Emma had emotional investment in finding Henry as a mother, these lost boys were wilfully working in cooperation|league with Pan, the villain. I think the stakes were far less.

This is Belle we are talking about here. Innocent Belle. She is not in league with Rumple on this, not cooperating with villains, willingly helps when she can, she has actually been VERY hurt by Rumple herself, Emma knows this. Emma is a friend to Belle. I just have a hard time swallowing it unless this will be the first instance of Emma showing her dark streak - and she will put saving herself first because she knows Gold's plan is to turn her dark? But if Regina is working to prevent that very thing from happening, would she let Emma even be aware of the plan to steal the heart?

For the record, I agree that I do not think we will see Regina doing this in malice against Belle. I better see the regrets and doubts. I totally understand the desperation of what would be motivating her forward on this but I am not a fan of her reasoning falling back on thinking like the EQ. She is supposed to be progressing past that.

Keeping her anti-hero edge, sure, I can even see her succumbing to taking out Cruella if necessary to protect Henry but just using an innocent like Belle does rub me the wrong way.

[wild sage growing]

Originally Posted by GrhmLz (View Post) I understand your point but I think this is one of those times where a feeling of disconnect comes into play. Emma had emotional investment in finding Henry as a mother, these lost boys were wilfully working in cooperation|league with Pan, the villain. I think the stakes were far less. This is Belle we are talking about here. Innocent Belle. She is not in league with Rumple on this, not cooperating with villains, willingly helps when she can, she has actually been VERY hurt by Rumple herself, Emma knows this. Emma is a friend to Belle. I just have a hard time swallowing it unless this will be the first instance of Emma showing her dark streak - and she will put saving herself first because she knows Gold's plan is to turn her dark? But if Regina is working to prevent that very thing from happening, would she let Emma even be aware of the plan to steal the heart? For the record, I agree that I do not think we will see Regina doing this in malice against Belle. I better see the regrets and doubts. I totally understand the desperation of what would be motivating her forward on this but I am not a fan of her reasoning falling back on thinking like the EQ. She is supposed to be progressing past that. Keeping her anti-hero edge, sure, I can even see her succumbing to taking out Cruella if necessary to protect Henry but just using an innocent like Belle does rub me the wrong way.

The Lost Boys were children, and Emma knew as well as anyone else that they were being brainwashed by Pan. She identified with them in that respect several times, so I'm going to have to disagree that Belle is any more innocent than a captive child. I don't feel comfortable debating who is more or less deserving of a heart rip, though, so maybe we should drop this line of conversation.

That being said--I'm not justifying what Regina may or may not be doing to Belle at all. It's messed up, but I have a hard time saying it's not in character. Regina's threshold for protecting her loved ones is just more questionable than most (though not more so than several other characters on this show), and I think personality flaws like that are just what you sign up for when you stan a former villain.

One of her main purposes as a character since the second season has been to take on the burden of the "greater good" darker magic none of the others are willing to produce in order to manipulate various situations. She rips hearts, she goes under cover, and she does it because her heart is already black and she has very little to lose. Tragic as that may be, there's something noble in her desire to protect the others from paying the price of dark magic, and that's something Lana has also touched on several times. Regina can and will utilize her darkness for her loved ones, and that isn't going to chance anytime soon.

[GrhmLz]

While they may have been technically 'children', most from what I could see were pre-teen to teenage level, capable of reasoning power beyond someone like say, Roland's age? They were perfectly capable of listening to Emma when it came time to make a decision to give up Pan's location just like the lost boy could have given up information but he chose to remain loyal to Pan at the time. That is not to say some did not feel intimidation but it does not erase that that lost boy was in a position of deciding to remain loyal to the villain.

Not sure where you interpreted this turn of discussion to be about who warrants a heart rip because I was debating Emma's given closeness to the situation and the choices or character of the players involved.

Sure, Emma related to their similar circumstances of being an orphan, lost boys to her being a lost girl, but that does not substitute the loyalty and priority that went to Henry over them, so we will have to part ways on this and agree to disagree. Belle is a completely different story from those lost boys and I just have a hard time seeing Emma agreeing to stealing Belle's heart. So if Regina does this, it seems to me she is going at it solo.

Also doing something 'EQ' would do does clash with the redemption arc, imo. The problem for me is she has been evolving and to back track like THAT is reminiscent to her using Belle against Rumple when she locked her away. She was at a certain place at that time as the EQ but I think she has even grown more from the woman we even saw in the Neverland arc. It is why QoD were suspicious of her AND Rumple knew she was just playing them because her changes have been so evident. She did her best as the mole but she can not be exactly who she used to be. And that does not bother me because it shows the change for the better.

I get protecting her loved ones if need be but her loved ones do not need protecting from Belle. So yes that is why using Belle to achieve those ends is bothersome for me.

[wild sage growing]

Originally Posted by GrhmLz (View Post) While they may have been technically 'children', most from what I could see were pre-teen to teenage level, capable of reasoning power beyond someone like say, Roland's age? They were perfectly capable of listening to Emma when it came time to make a decision to give up Pan's location just like the lost boy could have given up information but he chose to remain loyal to Pan at the time. That is not to say some did not feel intimidation but it does not erase that that lost boy was in a position of deciding to remain loyal to the villain. Not sure where you interpreted this turn of discussion to be about who warrants a heart rip because I was debating Emma's given closeness to the situation and the choices or character of the players involved. Sure, Emma related to their similar circumstances of being an orphan, lost boys to her being a lost girl, but that does not substitute the loyalty and priority that went to Henry over them, so we will have to part ways on this and agree to disagree. Belle is a completely different story from those lost boys and I just have a hard time seeing Emma agreeing to stealing Belle's heart. So if Regina does this, it seems to me she is going at it solo.

Agree to disagree, for sure. But just to be clear, I was referring to this:

I find it hard to believe Emma would even go along with this if she knew Belle was not consenting to a plan.

I was simply debating that that Emma would probably consent to allowing Regina to steal Belle's heart if Henry (or another loved one) was involved because she's done it before to another innocent.

But moving on from that...

Originally Posted by GrhmLz (View Post) Also doing something 'EQ' would do does clash with the redemption arc, imo. The problem for me is she has been involving to backpack like THAT is reminiscent to her using Belle against Rumple when she locked her away. She was at a certain place at that time as the EQ but I think she has even grown more from the woman we even saw in the Neverland arc. It is why QoD were suspicious of her AND Rumple knew she was just playing them because her changes have been so evident. She did her best but she can not be exactly who she used to be. I get protecting her loved ones if need be but her loved ones do not need protecting from Belle. So yes that is why using Belle to achieve those ends is bothersome for me.

Again, it isn't personal. It's about Rumple, not Belle. She knows what Belle means to Rumple (same as Rumple knows what Robin means to Regina), and she's going to try and use that against him. She's being backed into a corner, and she's going to behave the way she knows best. I don't see this as contrary to her redemption arc simply because I don't think she's ever going to be a colloquial "hero," and in many ways, I don't see her redemption arc as totally complete. And frankly, I don't really want her to be Snow or Emma.

*Also worth noting that we don't even know that any of this is going to happen, so maybe we shouldn't waste energy getting fired up about it after last night's travesty.

[GrhmLz]

Yeah, lol, I think we definitely have different interpretations.

I do not think Emma was as close to the lost boy, who was helping to keep Henry's location with Pan a secret, as she is to Belle who is not standing by Rumple's agenda. That to me, is why I am seeing the difference of why Emma would go along with one scenario and not the other. So just to clarify, I was never arguing that one was actually more deserving of a heart rip than another - just that Lost Boy and Belle were|are coming from completely different positions which could alter how Emma would approach the different circumstances. But, yes, agreeing to move on as this is a matter of interpretation here.

I do not think doing the right thing has anything to do with Regina being a replica of Emma or Snow. Nor does it mean she is the hero of the week. Heck, I do not even think Emma and Snow are replicas of each other. They are flawed in their own ways too.

But using innocents to achieve a means to an end, even if it is justifiable in their eyes, is a classic villain move, so yes I certainly apply concern where I feel concern is warranted. Especially on a show where villains are not born but made. Regina did not start out a villain. She became one, yes, and a redemption arc has evolved showing she does not have to remain 'stuck' in old behavior patterns. For me, this is a bad writing move IF true. It is regression. Going directly after Gold is a different story because he threatened her.

All characters have flaws, there will never be perfection. But I think there comes a time in redemption where a point is reached that certain choices are a no go. For me, it has nothing to do with being the perfect hero.

*sighs* Now I feel the need to reinforce that I do understand Regina and WHY she feels desperate in this situation. I guess just like some were initially concerned with how the kidnapping and interrogation of Pinnochio would go down, I will need to wait and see how Belle is approached in this situation and how both react.

[wild sage growing]

Fair is fair. I can't debate this endlessly.

[GrhmLz]

That is fine. .

I was just trying to engage in discussion even if we are not always agreeing.

[wild sage growing]

As was I, but I pride myself on not making too many waves in this fandom, and I'd rather not break that streak with someone I actually respect.

No sense in going back and forth if we fundamentally disagree, right?

[GrhmLz]

True. I usually will try to break away myself as well if the arguments start to feel like they will just be recycling themselves.

[wild sage growing]

Exactly. I can only go so far in fighting over a tv show before I feel like a need to take a step back.

And there's been so much negativity today. It's frankly exhausting.

ETA: Not that anyone is paying attention right now, but I added the promos to the OP. #priorities

[crazy_diamond]

Originally Posted by GrhmLz (View Post) It's stupid, imo. I rather Regina seek out help with this problem. I find it hard to believe Emma would even go along with this if she knew Belle was not consenting to a plan. But from a promo, people said it looks like Regina tells either Emma and the Charmings about the Zelena reveal. Does she not share about Gold's threats and how she found out this information?

, but as always we'll just have to wait and get the full picture on Sunday...

[sherry02]

I miss filming spoilers.

[T'Lynn]

Hey guys! Thought I would drop this here!

[Imzadi]

thanks for that. well seems like they form a nice friendship there

[wild sage growing]

Thanks for the info, T'Lynn.

I love how far their friendship has come. It's such a wonderful thing to see.