Miranda

Sorry I meant bond yes not band. Although that would be interesting to see Red and Liz in a band. but back to what we were talking about.

The Fulcrum was also one of the reasons but I think all the other reasons mentioned here outweighed the Fulcrum.

I agree with Kris, he had already lost everything there was to lose for him so at the point he surrendered to the FBI, I think he only had things to gain. Him coming in contact with Liz, getting Tom out of her life. Well we all know that didn't work but at least he tried.

Fangirl49

Yeah Miranda I read that just like you typed it and I pictured them in a band!

When Liz profiled him she said he needed her and he hated that about himself. I think he has been torn by his need for her and his desire to keep her safe. I think he believed he could get to know her and perhaps control her desire for answers. It's just like he's been a man caught in the middle and trying to find a way through. There are obviously things he does not want her to know and he wants to shield her from that, but she's stubborn and won't stop searching.

Lauren Helen Graham

Since we know that everything that he did since his family died, was getting as many information on the Cabal as possible, I realized he's been after the Fulcrum as well He knew that at some point he'd need the device since he used it as leverage over the Cabal... He came very well for the Fulcrum as well. Although I believe he was hoping this day would never come.

Yes, he had only to gain by surrendering to the FBI. And not just what Miranda mentioned, but also regarding information on his family and what happened back then. At least that's my guess.

Marilyn, good catch I agree with you. I think he was convinced that he could be in control of the situation at any means... But he wasn't and soon he lost control.

Miranda

I am sure that Red thought that he could have full control on what he would tell Liz and what she could find out and couldn't but that didn't go as planned. Liz is stubborn when it comes too that but I can completely understand her need to know about her past and I think Red underestimated her urge to know.

Lauren Helen Graham

Yes, Red underestimates the urge I have that feeling, too. But just because he knows what the past is (or part of it) and he wants to spare her of the pain I guess... And the danger. Maybe keeping her safe caused all the pain in his life and he just doesn't want her to grasp that and he doesn't want it to be for nothing maybe as well...

Fangirl49

He has tried to block all her searches. I think he did falsely believe he could stop her from looking.

Maybe he should never have told her he knew who she was.

Lauren Helen Graham

Or maybe he believed that she'd give up at some point? But as soon as she realized he could have answers and they are connected, she started digging deeper and deeper.

Yes, Marilyn, that was the mistake then... But he needed her trust, her curiosity to agree to all of this and make himself believable.

Miranda

You really think a smart man like Red though that Liz was going to stop asking questions or stop looking into her past? No I don't believe that.

Maybe it would have been better if he never told her he knew her but it would have probably gotten out sooner or later.

If all the pain that Red has gone through was caused by him protecting Liz he must love her even more than we know.

Fangirl49

After watching last nights episode I am going to change my opinion. I think that Red hoped he could form some type of friendship with Liz based on trust and respect. Perhaps he thought if the friendship were there the. He could talk to her and answer some of her questions. Maybe even tell her of decisions he made that he thinks she would blame him for.

So I think he knew she would search for answered but he thought he could control that. And then as they got to know each other he would feel more comforTable giving her at least some answers.

Miranda

Last night was a real revelation for me when it came to Red and why he surrendered. I love they put that conversation in last night's episode. It all went so differently than he thought. He couldn't have predicted this outcome.

Lauren Helen Graham

Marilyn, I love your thought about what Red's intentions regarding Liz were... And since the episode I think so, too. Especially with him pointing out that he didn't see it coming that it would get harder day by day. I felt so sorry.

I think for him being friends with Sam for so long, he hoped that Liz would start to see him differently at some point as well. Sam had and she knew Sam, he had raised her, he is her father after all.

But yeah, Red couldn't have predicted that outcome, no chance.

Fangirl49

He told her at one point that he wanted to be close, to have influence. I think he really wanted to be her friend, more than anything else. Oh now I am so sad. Red is so alone.

Lauren Helen Graham

Yeah, that's true... He cared for her from the beginning and all he got was her being ungrateful, mean, unfair. Poor Red. I really can see him regretting all of it and he's blaming himself, I'm sure of that.

Fangirl49

I think he regrets it too. If he had known it would cost Kaplan.....,

Lauren Helen Graham

And if he'd know that what he was wishing for the most, be there for her, be her anchor would turn out to be the opposite, he wouldn't have done it. If he'd known back then that she'd fake her own death to get away from him, I'm sure he'd never have surrendered in the first place. Wouldn't it have been easier to not know how a relationship with her would look like in comparison to the hate she is feeling for him?