Lauren Helen Graham

Tari, you're depressing me here... But I think you're right, honestly. She doesn't believe a word that comes out of his mouth, why would she believe he cares so deeply and honestly for her. He traded himself for her again in the midseason finale, she was beyond happy to see him alive, even hugged him... And now this? Did I miss something? It just makes no sense anymore, this writing.

Me, too. I really doubt everything she does and says even... She hugs him and I'm wondering if it means something at all. Did it really get so bad?

Even you are hopeless... We all think this relationship is so far gone that there is no turning back from the point they are at right now.

Miranda, Katharina brought misery to Red's life alone because she played him. Don't forget, he was her assignment. I'm really curious to hear that story but I guess it wasn't him who caused that misery at the first place.
Marilyn we had the same thought here.

I just think, Tari, that Red at some point lost the ability to trust, to open up to people, to be vulnerable. Because he used to be and was disappointed and used and betrayed so badly and many times before... I just think he's damaged and I was hoping for Liz to realize that with her profiler skills. But she never uses them on Red. We know that by now. She isn't the person who'd be willing to get him back.

Fangirl49

I think maybe when he entered her life that he thought he could get away without telling her about her past. Maybe he didn't expect to care so much and thought he could keep her at arms length. It's obvious that he never wanted her to learn about her past. He's a man used to being in control and this was a situation he couldn't control. I wonder if he even planned to walk away once he had Tom out of her life and had stopped Berlin.

ChakotaysLover

I think she hates that she can be so happy when Red is around. So, she clings to her revulsion and distrust,

Fangirl49

Maybe she feels guilty about it since he's a criminal.

ChakotaysLover

She's a "good guy"..... she' supposed to be repulsed by all criminals, by everything Red stands for. She shouldn't be curious about about him. Liz shouldn't want to work with him, and yet.... she does. Despite her various protests about doing so, she's still working with him.

stlavin95

Maybe she does.

Miranda

I think you are right. That Red thought he would get away with not telling her anything. I am sure that he knew she was going to ask questions but he might have thought that he could blew her off but he can't. She wants to know everything. Which she has a right too but she also needs to realize that some things are way too dangerous for her too know.

Lauren Helen Graham

Oh wow, Tari, you've got a point with that. I can really see you being right, her hating how he makes her feel. Which is safe and happy and quiet. You know. And for him being a criminal I agree, she could feel guilty about it even. Great point, too, Marilyn

And she started to care and honestly, that's against everything that the FBI teaches their agents and it's the least they want them to feel.

I as well agree about the fact that everything went off hand for Red. He never expected it to go down like that. He didn't want her to know about her past. Not at all... And still it happened because of everything that went sideways.

ChakotaysLover

She's always throwing it in his face that he is a criminal. It's not so much to shame him, but to keep the disgust fresh inside her. Liz found how easy it was for her to stray over to his side of the line, and some part of her, I believe wants to go back to it. After those first few days she was comfortable being on the run with him,

Fangirl49

And we have essentially restated what Emma told her about how Red can make you feel. I think we are absolutely right about what Luz is trying to do.

ChakotaysLover

What if Liz isn't the LATEST in a pattern? What if Emma was the test, a way to prove to Red that he could put someone at the center of his world, as a way of preparing to re-enter Liz's life.

stlavin95

I think that is something that Liz hasn't realised yet.

Lauren Helen Graham

Tari, that's interesting. You're saying that she might be fighting herself while she takes it out on Red... Nice thought, really nice thought. And yes, that could be true. It would explain why she never really faced herself what she had done in the past.

Oh yes, true... And I hated this because I'm wondering what purpose it had

Not sure Tari about your second guess... I doubt that. We know that Red in general has some influence on women the way he's acting. I don't think it ever was him 'practicing' for Liz.

ChakotaysLover

Human nature isn't it? To resist? Red has struck a chord within Liz, a deep dark wickedness that was always there, but one she never let out. Then comes Red, he's whispering in her ear that 'Its ok' 'No one can stop you' or words to that affect.

Red is everything she should hate, but I think, secretly, there are parts of Liz that agree with him, with how he sees the world. And she hates it. So of course she's going to fight him tooth a nail.

Fangirl49

And Red is a "good" bad guy. He's trying to save people and Liz can see that, the good in him. She identifies with him. And finds herself choosing him more than she should, agreeing with him.

The more we talk, the more I think of romance, lol. This is how they write the characters in the books. Not saying that's what I think for the show , but just that the Liz red relationship does not totally got into any one category