Lauren Helen Graham

Marilyn, this is my favorite hug of them as well I think. Him being the only one waiting for her, the song, her smile when she sees him. I recall getting goose bumps when I saw it first and I still get them... It's such a touching scene

I love this analysis you brought over here. I felt the same way... But she was differently when she entered the room already. She wanted to stop, to pull away then but he wouldn't let that happen. I'm not sure if that should be the reason because shall she really have wanted to stop, she should have sent him away. But that she can't do, can she?
And like you said, it's no excuse for her faking her death, at least not for me. Especially when there wasn't even a 'Sorry' afterwards.

Fangirl49

This is what happens after her exoneration in S3B. She goes to Red but instead of some quality personal time, he acts prickly and distant, then whips out a giant map to show her how just much hard work still needs to be done before Odysseus can even consider returning home. Her response? She rejects it (and him with it) and goes straight back to Tom. He promises to give her everything she wants right there and then at a discount. She only has to bury her head in the sand regarding a couple of things and since Liz is prone to self-delusion and denial by default, she jumps at the opportunity. This is where her relationship with Red begins to go off the rails.

I copied this from the analysis in Tumblr. I hope that's ok.

I got to admit there are a lot of things about Red and Liz that sound like a live story. Then other times it's not. But she completely changed after 3A. And I think it's because Red wouldn't give up his plans and do what she wanted.

It also talked about her being a narcissist and believing the world "Red" revolves around her. And yet Red holds deep secrets he refuses to share and this puts them on a collision purse. It's one of the best analysis I've read.

So after the fake death Red stops even trying to meet her halfway and she reacts in anger because she feels entitled. Thus leading to her being jealous of his secret in the bag just like she was jealous of the fulcrum or anything she thinks he values more Than her.

Miranda

I love that you brought that over as well Marilyn cause that person really has a good point! Maybe she did change because of that. Not sure if that was the only thing, maybe there was more but that could have definitly been a reason.

The fake death was the straw that broke the camel's back for Red. I think he started to start her, like you said Marilyn but after the fake death he obviously couldn't trust her anymore and now he has a reason to never ever trust her again and that is completely on her. By making the choices she made then, she destroyed that part of their relationship.

Fangirl49

It's a great analysis, just incredibly long. It's like the person who wrote it is a psychiatrist because it's spot on about both of them.

Reds guilt complex enabled Liz and allowed her to treat him badly and then when he pulled away she got mad even though she caused it by the fake death. But it's like they both got back from their time on the run and could not figure out where their relationship went. Liz is ready to stop and Red has no intention of it. That's the initial conflict. And her reaction causes Red to pull away and she goes back to tom.... but we are unable to get back to the S1 dynamic because neither of them know how.

Miranda

I think that is spot on. They have no idea how to get their relationship they once had back cause too much has happened and they both don't know how to deal with that in a good way.

Fangirl49

Red has trust issues. Liz has entitlement issues. Not a healthy mix.

Maybe Dembe needs to lock them up until they deal with each other.

Lauren Helen Graham

But still... Does that justify her actions in season 3B? She seems to not trust him at all anymore, suspects the worst every single time. Tells him that he lied to her about her mother, fakes her death... Why would she do that?

You know what bothers me the most? That Liz never asked for his reasons. Wouldn't sometimes reasons justify the means? Or at least make others understand?

In general I love the key parts of the analysis as well

Fangirl49

The fake death is just too much. And I can't justify it. Never could. Even this analysis can't justify it. She went too far. Kris I agree with everything you said.

I keep thinking in our S3 rewatch we will see some really horrible thing Red did... because I can't think of a darn thing.

ChakotaysLover

Red did everything he could to protect Liz in S3, has since the show started. She's the one going off book, listening to her poisonous husband, and thinking she knows better than everyone. The faked death is just another example of Liz thinking she's the only one with an answer.

Lauren Helen Graham

True... In season 3 I can't think of anything horrible Red did... He changed so much for her, he hurt her, yes. With Tom, with Sam... But that changed I think because he cared more and more. For her, it is the exact opposite.

ChakotaysLover

At this point Liz is turning out to be a worse character than Fred.

Fred does bad things, he admits that he does bad things. Liz does the same.... but she doesn't own her actions. She blames them on HIM!

Fangirl49

Did you kill Sam? Yes. Did you hire Tom? Yes. Yeah he answers her. Do you know why Tom died? Yes I know but I wOnt say.

Yes he answers her.

In S3 I remember he cost tom a job but he turns around and saves him from prison. The only other thing I remember is she learns he hired Anton velov to try and keep him away from Liz. And I can see being mad but not to the point of hurting him like she did.

ChakotaysLover

Yeah, but in Liz's mind, hurting him makes perfect sense to her as a sort of recompense for all the pain he's caused her.

Miranda

Yes he answers her but he always partly answers her. Like you said Marilyn, he said yes to all those questions but never explained more and that is what gets to her. Should she know everything? No. But sometimes I think Red could have said or explained more than he did but that still doesn't justify what Liz did to him

Lauren Helen Graham

Honestly, Miranda... She wouldn't care for the whys... She never had and I don't see her caring about them at all. It's what has happened over and over again. When he wanted to explain or explain she backed off and she didn't change her attitude. It really doesn't make a difference. I wouldn't care to tell her why either if I were Red. Sorry, I just hate that character and no matter what anybody says, it won't change. I'm not really objective there anymore.