Lauren Helen Graham

I don't blame Red for it. Because with not telling people anything he tries to keep them as safe as possible. We know what happens to people who are aware that this organization exists. We know what happens to those who start to investigate against him, who have proof of all the wrong they did. Red just wanted to keep the task force safe, same he wanted to do with Liz. But she went there and outed herself to be one that knows about everything. And this brought her in danger and since she shot the AG the focus of the Cabal is on her and Red and Red's team.
So no, I don't blame Red.

A real conversation between Ressler and Liz... I'm really wondering if we'll get that anytime soon or at all. She now seems to be back with Tom, being worried about him only. She seems as if every other person is forgotten.

It's somehow really cute that it took you one more episode to be sure that Ressler really cares when I knew it last week already I guess all the disappointment with your ship made you really careful when it comes to feelings, emotions, the truth.

SOOOO TRUE!!!! Amen to that!
And the sad fact is that whenever a serious conversation starts, it's interrupted by something, an ambush, a call, a change of plans or whatever. They always find something. It's as if there isn't any deep conversation going on between any of the characters anymore. One sentence here and there doesn't make a conversation.

alt.er

I get your POV and agree that Red wants to keep them safe. But my point is that these are not mere civilians. They are already in the line of fire by virtue of their jobs at the Agency. And the second he got the Agency involved in his schemes in the pilot episode, Cooper, Ressler, Samar(later in place of Meera) and Aram got involved. We all know how the Cabal planned to compromise Cooper through his health scare and Connolly told Liz about how they had plans for getting rid of the rest. So the task force have never been safe. At least if Red told them everything he knows about the Cabal, they would know that they have a very powerful enemy. They just won't have been stumbling in the dark while a very dangerous predator lurking right behind them,

No one on this show talk to each other. The writers are so desperate to preserve the mystery that they don't care how moronic the characters come across. Liz was stuck in the tin can with Red for at least a day (you don't go from the coast to Iowa in mere hours) and doesn't ask him anything pertinent. Ressler and Liz talk on the phone at each other and not to each other. She doesn't explicitly explain why she did what she did and neither does Ressler state his side of things. Very frustrating.

My dearest wish would be a massive skype call. All characters disclose all their secrets and come up with a plan to take down the Cabal. Just imagine how awesome that would be.

Lauren Helen Graham

But the Cabal doesn't know yet that the task force knows about them. That's why Red isn't saying anything. And them not knowing keeps them safe. This plan was lain out in case they would come after them, they would frame Liz. But they didn't, they didn't manage to and right now the task force isn't the aim of the Cabal because they have to worry about other things.

So that's why Red might not tell them. Besides, they are hunting him down. I wouldn't really work with somebody who's hunting me down and try to get their hands on me They don't really care for him, why care for them? And he actually cares more for them than they do for him.

I'm really wondering how the show manages to exist even without the characters really interacting... Somehow they manage but it's getting more obvious with every single episode.

Btw, I need a refresher... Did Cooper tell Ressler that Connolly threatened him as well because of his drug addiction? Or doesn't he know yet that she killed Connolly to protect them all?

Miranda

Why can't everything just go back to normal! It makes me so sad!

I am trying to remember but I don't think that Cooper told him. Cooper didn't know about Ressler's drug addiction before Connolly shouted it out and when Cooper and Ressler were having that drink he didn't mention it I believe but I could be wrong.

alt.er

Which is exactly the best reason to tell them the whole story. Element of surprise. With both Red and taskforce working from either side, won't it be easier to take the Cabal down?

I just don't think the writers have thought this whole thing through. I get the idea that they want Red to do everything but what they don't understand is that results in the rest looking like idiots and the audience not connecting with them.

He fully expected Aram to help him which Aram did. So why not let them in on the secret and then work out a more effective plan. The only real thorn on Red's side in the task force is Ressler, who might need a lot of prodding to be convinced. Which is of course the fault of the writers. I just don't know how Red or Ressler will react to each other in any given episode. They flipflop so much.

No, Cooper wasn't shown telling Ressler everything that went down, which on this show can mean just about anything. In a real world situation, Cooper would have told Ressler everything, including the fact that Liz saved their asses. But no such occurrence here.

It sure is complicated but I'd really like to know how Liz feels about Ressler. Is she still angry at him or resigned or sad?

Miranda

I would really like to know how Liz feels about Ressler as well. It broke my heart when she thought that Ressler was trying to kill her. You think she really believed that before Red told her that Ressler wasn't..


So I remembered correctly. I agree that with this show it can mean anything but I really think that Cooper didn't tell Ressler, even if it was off screen. If he would have known I think Ressler would have reacted differently.

Lauren Helen Graham

Okay, first of all I knew I remembered Cooper telling Ressler and he did. He told Ressler that Connolly had a plan to bring all of them down and I quote "Samar, Aram, you." So yes, Ressler knows about this at least... He didn't mention though that the way to bring Ressler down would have been his drug addiction

I so love all of Megan's tweets! So cute and still so full of respect.

I'm not bothered by Red not telling them, I'm really bothered by them not starting to research on that matter on their own At least we don't even get a glimpse of them doing so... Which is depressing because you'd think they'd at least try to help them somehow, no matter how badly they are hunting Red and Liz down.

A really good question... Because honestly I have no clue what she is feeling towards anybody on the show right now. I think she is the character I understand the least on the show and maybe never will because I'm so different to her.

OMFG, that gif-set! And the lyrics in it, I soooo love that song!!!! There's even a Red/Liz video to that song

alt.er

I was totally shocked that Liz could ever believe that. She has seen the best and the worst of Ressler - she should know what he is capable of. The writers are so busy trying to maintain the mystery that they do major dis-service to all the characters.


So I stand corrected, gladly. It's good to remember that people do talk openly once in a while in this show. Now, if only Ressler and Liz had a real conversation.

The show tends to treat the taskforce as a team of armed gofers for Red, who couldn't even tie their shoes until Red came along. And as the lead on the task force, Ressler bears the brunt of it. I mean, I've lost count of the number of times he is made to look incompetent or plain stupid just to further the plot.

I don't understand her most of the time either. The writers tend to treat her in this really weird, almost insulting way. On one hand, all the male leads are strangely devoted to her including Cooper and Aram without ever explaining why, yet she, herself is never shown to take any positive step on her own. Red makes all the plans and she follows along. And when she goes against his plans, she always makes huge mistakes. It's infuriating that the female lead is treated in such a manner.

Right now tvland is filled with such amazing and interesting anti-heroines. Why can't Liz be one of them?

But to end my rant on a good note, I just found out that Megan Boone retweeted a really great Keenler fanwork on her instagram. That's so sweet! I want to wish that there's a hidden meaning behind it. What say u, guys? LOL

x

Miranda

I saw that she posted that artwork on IG. It's so awesome that she sees these things as well and it's very awesome for the maker of the art that Megan posted it on her IG.

I hate they way they are making her come of. Like you said every male lead including Ressler is devoted to her. They would do anything for her and she just doesn't appreciate that and that's just not good. She doesn't appreciate Ressler but then again I don't think she appreciates herself now either.

sunshinedan

I saw some fans calling this is misogynistic writing.She's been used as a plot device to push forward the plotline.
I guess this way that Liz was written is on purpose because TPTB just want Keen2 to be endgame/cannon. Liz has been portrayed as a cheater,liar,murderer,turns darker.That makes her more like Tom, They downgrade the heroine to match their golden boy Ressler is a boy scout by the book who represents justice. They sort of drift apart in many aspects. I don't want to pour cold water.But even there is a love triangle coming,I believe just TPTB keep Keen2 and Keenler ships spinning

alt.er

I guess I am one of those fans because I think the writing for Liz has been sexist most of the time. She is always playing second fiddle to Red. She is the little girl that needs to always told what to do. I get this strange idea that the writers are really impressed with themselves at having created a character like Red and for them everything is about him. They can't be bothered much to develop the other characters, including Liz. I happen to love Red but no show is considered great without having a nicely rounded group of backup characters, irrespective of how awesome the lead is. Look at Sopranos, Buffy or Veronica Mars. A fantastic central character who is only enhanced by the presence of great supporting characters.

Liz is almost never shown to have any agency. She never does anything on her own and the few times she did, she made horrible mistakes. The show introduced her as this rising star who got into the BAU in a very few years which is very, very tough and who was feared by the colleagues. But that character never made past the pilot.

As you said, Liz we have now is a liar, cheater and murderer and what's worse, isn't even aware of her flaws. She is certainly not aware enough to makes the required changes. Also, the only people she speaks of her change is Tom and Red and not the people she has actually hurt. Ressler trusted her when he let her go the first time and she went and killed Connelly. And then she is hurt that he is hunting her!!! What else can he possible do? Where's her sense of self-awareness? I have no problem liking and rooting for morally compromised characters, but they have to have some degree of self-awareness and not just see themselves as the victim all the time - they should care about others some of the time.

What else, she is also without a single independent idea in her head. Red called Ressler a robot, but she is the robot here. She never asks the right questions, never trust the right people and never manages to do the right thing. She only succeeds only when she listens to Red. I want her to be independent, strong and not tied down to her past.

I happen to like Tom but cannot stand what his presence does to Liz. As per Tom's story in the Chinese Restaurant, Liz is now a cheater, on top of everything else. Because Tom is so awesome, she just couldn't resist herself. And the bad girl falling for the bad boy scenario isn't interesting to me. Where's the drama in that?

Now the scenario where bad girl fall for the good boy and resist that urge in order to protect him is something I would love to see onscreen. Since is she is already a cheater, she shouldn't have any problem hooking up with Ressler even with Tom around.

Seriously though, when I think about the promise these two characters had at the beginning, it just makes me sad. Right now, I don't want this new and not so improved Liz to be with Ressler. He really is too good for her. No love triangle please. I don't want Ressler pining for her while Liz is oblivious and lost in her masochistic love for Tom. A big no to that.

Lauren Helen Graham

Sarah, I saw that art she retweeted as well and it's sooo beautiful! Maybe one of them most beautiful Keenler art that I've ever seen!

You know what I'm always wondering about? Why are all the men on the show so devoted to her. She hasn't done so many remarkable things that would lead towards such a devotion... It's more like the opposite. She's done sooo many stupid things which had consequences for all of them and they still are blindly following her. It's annoying. The only character who doesn't do it anymore is Samar. But yeah, she's not male

I'm one of them, too It's really embarrassing what TPTB are coming up with... And it doesn't really help that some of the guys are real gentlemen.

We already knew that Liz had cheated on Nick with Tom... That's what we learned in Leonard Caul last season... And it got worse knowing that her cheating was going on for some time. It's unbelievable.

Really, I don't want Ressler with her right now and I'm sure as soon as he finds out about her and Tom, he'll give up on her for now... I would do that. Nobody can help her now, she needs to see her mistakes on her own and if she doesn't, Ressler deserves someone better.

Miranda

I will always be a Keenler shipper at heart and I want nothing more than to see them together but at this moment I agree with you and I don't want them together. Not the way Liz is now. She would bring Ressler down and I don't want that. He is too good for that. And no please no love triangle! Love triangles suck!

Lauren Helen Graham

I'm all with you guys. Right now it's not the right time. I somehow still have some hope that Ressler can bring her back from that dark place she is in. Just because he's that guy, that really good, by the books, guy. Who else would be better for something like this than him?

A little reminder:
Guys, I really don't want to interrupt our great discussion in here but it's the Keenler thread and I'd love to get it back on topic. Feel free to use the general season 3 discussion thread over here: http://www.fanforum.com/f434/season-...tart-63156470/
I'll simply bring the last two posts of yours over there if that's okay with you? I love that discussion and I so want to join! Thanks for understanding

Miranda

Thanks for addressing this Kris. I would like to get back on topic as well.

What do you think will happen between Ressler and Liz in tonight episode? I hope they at least have a scene together.