[RED4president2016]

Red is her father.... I don't know HOW the writers could be more clear?!

First off, Red has endured torture many times, he had zero motivation to tell Kirk that Liz was his daughter in terms of saving his own life.... Kirk was going to kill him either way.

I think the writers knew this type of situation was the only way we would get any kind of confession from Red, and especially to Kirk who was betrayed in a way, thinking and loving Masha as if she were his daughter. Red continues to resist the question.. Even deflecting saying it doesn't matter, and that he considered Sam to be her father(which is VERY telling of what Red is thinking, he doesn't consider himself to be Liz's true father hence he has never lied to her in his mind)..he finally caved and not only said "yes" but said again "Elizabeth is my daughter"....

Then... The writers wrap things up with a beautiful scene between Liz/Afnes and Red where Liz is saying "I wish my father could have been here to see Agnes grow up"... Red is HOLDING Agnes and smiling...hello?!?

Plus One of the writers tweeted earlier today that "Red didn't lie" regarding last nights episode... The. Erased his Tweet....

So I'm not sure how else anyone could soon this, except for looking for what they want to see and not what the writers are showing us or telling us.

They've also said this show has always been about the relationship between Red and Liz.... It's a crime/conspiracy/action show also.... But ultimately Red has shown through the years to care deeply for Liz in a way that only a father could. He obviously showed a huge amount of grief and regret in the interaction with Kirk. Red truly believes he doesn't deserve to be called her dad is what I saw.... The emotion and pain he showed.

Ultimately this is the writers story to tell.... I believe they always intended for Redto be her dad and did a good job of spinning hints and casting reasonable doubt! But now that we know he is her father we can move on!! I think that's what the writers want!

There's still so much left unanswered! Can we please move forward! What happened the night of the fire, is Katarina alive?! What about Red's other family!!! What about the cabal?! What's Red's master plan?! Sooooo much!!

[Lauren Helen Graham]

So guys, I've read everything that you posted about the episode and it's really interesting... First of all I have to say that I really thought the episode great and I really loved it. Yes, the lack of answers is annoying but who knows, maybe we got an answer, we just don't know if we can believe it. More on my opinion about that later on in that post.

Saw no relevance to the Kaplan scenes other than the writers too afraid to kill her for real. She made me mad with what she said about Red except the part about her worry for the danger to Red because of what he would do for Liz.

That's exactly how I felt! She still didn't get that the way she did what she did was wrong... She still thinks she did everything right. It drove me crazy and damn it, why isn't she dead? I really hope she's gone for good.
The only thing that made it a little bit better was that she said that she made it so much worse by what she did and that Red would never forgive her for it and shall he find out she's still alive he'd kill her for good this time. Besides, I liked that she betrayed Red to kind of protect him from himself. But that really was it, otherwise, I could have strangled her.
And this guy, see... I told you that he might only be a good guy who wants to help her and since she was the one being shot in the woods I'm not sure if I would have trusted her.

The Dembe/Red scene, the goodbye scene I'll call it, was fantastic. God, I almost started to cry! I think it never was that serious before. Red and Dembe, both, knew that Red might never return...

What I think interesting is that you were wondering why Red kept Dr. Shaw alive in the first place. He did it at a time that we didn't know that Kirk would kidnap Liz and want to exchange her for Red. We didn't know that Dr. Shaw and her experiments would be the key to save Red at some point, not even to save Liz. I'm really wondering if there was a deeper reason and if it might have something to do with what Red whispered in Kirk's ear

The Red/Kirk moments were fantastic as well. I loved it and gladly I understood every single word spoken by Red and Kirk. It was nice to hear that Kirk and Red were both targets, seems thought that Kirk never knew he was one? Did anybody else get that impression?

And now to the father question... Honestly, I can see Red being the father. And I can see it all coming down to the definition of the word 'father'. Maybe Red doesn't consider himself the father because for him the father is the person that she, Masha, grew up with. And from all the talks we got in the episode we know now that Masha indeed grew up with Kirk being around, not Red. So yeah, maybe Red is the biological father but not the father in the sense as he sees a father. That could be the reason why he told her he wasn't her father when she asked in season 1. Besides, did Red ever tell her that she actually killed her father? He always just confirmed that she shot him and who knows, maybe she did but he didn't die. That's how he could have gotten the burn marks, not by saving her but by being shot by her and being left their for dead.
And now it as well makes sense that the person in the memories of the night of the fire, that was supposed to be her father, always called her Elizabeth. It's just Red that calls her so! Kirk never did, so why would he be the biological father? It's more likely it was Red. That would mean he was the one hiding her in the closet. And does that mean as well that he hid the Fulcrum in the bunny? Or was it somebody else like Katarina maybe? Was she involved in all of that as well?
And I don't recall it but Red once told Liz that he believes that her father was the only person that she might ever have loved. Who did he mean by this? Himself and he felt sorry for her (for which reason ever) or did he refer to Kirk there which seems more likely to me.

I really have no clue though what Red could have told Kirk to be kept alive. Red being the father of Liz didn't help... Kirk wanted Red dead and therefore accepted to die himself until Red told him something. It can't be about Katarina being alive because there would really be the first lie, real lie which can't even be explained by word definitions. Red told Liz her mother is dead and I still believe she is dead.
What if there is another child? What else could it be otherwise? I have no idea.

Oh man, and now enough of the rambling...

[~Janice~]

Still confused, Red admitted to being Liz's father but whispered something to Kirk to prevent him from killing him. Guess we'll never know for sure. I always thought Liz was Red's daughter but just can't understand why he wouldn't be honest and tell Liz the truth Glad Mr Kaplan is on the move, wonder if she has any plans of revenge Also who picked her up, someone random or Dembe?

[Fangirl49]

Here's a question: Why was Red able to complete Kirk's sentences when Kirk was telling him about Katarina? How did Red know she danced etc.?

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Janice, you're confused, too? I guess every single viewer is... It's frustrating somehow.

And yes, it's a good question. If Red really is her father, why doesn't he tell her? Why doesn't he want to her to know?

And Marilyn, because Red was with Katarina as well and who knows, maybe she told him or maybe she did it a lot... the dancing I mean

[Fangirl49]

I thought that might be how she seduced all the men or something, for them both to know.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Originally Posted by Fangirl49 (View Post) I thought that might be how she seduced all the men or something, for them both to know.

That's a possibility... Especially since this was one of their first times being out. At least it sounded like that when Kirk told Red about it.

[HeySoos]

Originally Posted by Fangirl49 (View Post) I thought that might be how she seduced all the men or something, for them both to know.

I think this is it Marilyn. I also think Kirk didn't know Katarina was sent to use Red as well. Did anyone else get that? The more I think about this the more confused I am making myself. Help!

[Fangirl49]

I agree I don't think Kirk knew he was a target

[Marauders]

Red must have told him something about Kat, about their past for him to not kill him. But we hardly know anything about their past so we cant even speculate as we havent been given enough information.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

I agree as well... Kirk had no idea that he was a target, too. He thought he was an affair, he even thought that Red might have been sent to come for Katarina. The truth, that he was her target as well, surprised Kirk.

What if there was another child? Kirk always was obsessed with Liz being his child, he would have loved her, would she have been his daughter. Not just because she might have been able to safe him. But I think he really would have been able to love her as his daughter. Maybe there's somebody else out there?

[Fangirl49]

That's why I'm wondering if the names are significant. Elizabeth and Masha.. Two different children?

I agree Marauders we really didn't learn anything about the past like we thought

[Lauren Helen Graham]

I was wondering the same... It's possible, isn't it? But Red told her that her name is Masha Rostova, right? I mean Liz... So wouldn't it be a lie as well then? Or do you think that Liz somehow got the identity of the second child. That the second child was originally Elizabeth? I'm totally confused now

[Marauders]

Another child in the mix was one of my initial thoughts too, it would be interesting but thought it was a crazy idea so didnt mention it. But its a possibility and could have been what he whispered to Kirk!
I just feel like I may be clasping at straws, because other than telling Kirk a bombshell like Kat is alive, or who her real father is, then I really have no idea why he would have kept him alive.

[HeySoos]

When you say another child are you thinking Katarina had two children? When would that have happend for it to be Kirk's child? Twins! One was Kirks. The third man was Liz's father. Just kidding. That would take us into soap territory and I would have to stop. I waste enough tie on one soap as it is. Seriously though I am not sure how that would work.