[sunshinedan]

When I watched the first five minutes, I thought both Liz and Tom had amnesia,they weren't no longer the persons we've met. How dare Tom ask Liz to go away with him,start over in a boar after all the lies and betryal? What' wrong with him ? I just want to smack him.Oh, it's the writers have amnesia.
The raining scene is meaningless,forced,awkward.It's not romantic at all.
Liz told Tom her dad died in the fire and Tom just looked at her in response. What about Tom telling Liz her dad was alive back in S1? I don't know if this is a plot hole or the writers forget it.

The rest of thie ep. is just OK. don't care about the blacklister and the case.
the blacklister of next ep. shows up at the end of ep.
I'm getting more and more frustrated about the show.don't know why,maybe the keen2 storyline.It's utterly out of control. The ugly ratings should be a wake up call to TPTB. This Tom thing doesn't work well.

[One Thing Remains]

I really liked this ep. Of course I like the Tom/Liz interaction so it doesn't bother me like it does a lot of you. I don't feel that their relationship is forced and I feel like they have a lot of chemistry between them. And sorry, but to me the rain scene was very romantic. The way Tom stroked her hair and held her close

As far as Tom asking her to go away with him on a boat, that's what he wants. To be with Liz. But I am pretty sure he already knows that Liz will never accept. Liz wouldn't even run away with him when they were happily married. But he can't help but offer. He's been asking her to run away with him from the beginning so I don't really see that as ooc or the writers having amnesia.

So Connelly admitting that he is pulling Cooper's strings because his strings are being pulled was an interesting revelation. I thought he was doing it for his own selfish reasons not because he was following what the Cabal wanted or needed.

Red really needs to start telling Liz what he knows about her parents and her life. That's all there is to it. Until Red starts being straight with Liz and telling her what he knows I just don't see their relationship improving. I feel bad about it, but at the same time Red can only blame himself. And since they are choosing to keep the audience in the dark as well as Liz it's hard to say his silence is justified. I think I would be a lot more sympathetic towards Red and his plight to keep everything from Liz if I knew why he had to be so secretive.

So Liz is at least half Russian. That's good to know, but it makes me feel bad for Liz. She has been denied her heritage. Also, I guess that means that Liz must not really remember anything about her mom either. I find it interesting that Liz seems so focused on finding out about her dad, but really hasn't expressed any interest in finding her mother.

If her mom was KGB I can't help but wonder if she was the one who stole the fulcrum and hid it in the bunny as a spy for her country.

It was interesting to find out that Red was the one who tampered with Liz's memory. He needed the fulcrum to keep his life, but he put Liz's needs first and messed up with her memories. That pretty much proves how much Red loves her.

It doesn't really bother me that Liz accused Red of loving her mother. It's possible he did love her mother. It would explain why he feels so responsible for Liz and loves her so much.

I can't believe for one second that Dembe did not know that Red had cameras in that flat. That means that Dembe knew Red would find out when he send Liz into that flat. I wonder if he was hoping that it would make Red come clean with Liz.

All in all I really liked this episode

[ChellyChelle]

Originally Posted by sunshinedan (View Post) Liz told Tom her dad died in the fire and Tom just looked at her in response. What about Tom telling Liz her dad was alive back in S1? I don't know if this is a plot hole or the writers forget it.

See, I need to re-watch Season 1. I don't remember Tom telling her that her dad was still alive. I feel like a lot of info has been thrown at us this season and it's a bit confusing. S1 was much easier to follow along.

And I agree with you about feeling as if Liz & Tom are out of character. I believed badass, lying Tom. The Tom they are showing us now, I'm having a hard time digesting. And Liz is just everywhere in her feelings and emotions.

[One Thing Remains]

Chelly Tom whispered it into Liz's ear in the season one finale after he had been shot and was slumped against the wall.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Hm, I still don't know what to say about the episode... I'm still extremely disappointed and sadly can't find any good words for it.

When I watched the first five minutes, I thought both Liz and Tom had amnesia,they weren't no longer the persons we've met. How dare Tom ask Liz to go away with him,start over in a boar after all the lies and betryal? What' wrong with him ? I just want to smack him.Oh, it's the writers have amnesia.

Oh yes, that pretty sums it up how I feel about the whole episode, not only about the first five minutes. Although I was like "Come on, who does offer something like that to a person who wants answers, who wants to know who she is, a person that you love or you say you love?!" That was the worst joke ever and I bet we're not done with it. I really hope he gets his boat and sails away, as far away as possible.

And yeah, him not saying anything about her father. He told her that her father was still alive. So yeah, I would look stupid as well when she said me he was dead and say nothing. Wow, another lie of yours, Tom Keen? Well done. And she doesn't even care (or maybe remember - and we're back to amnesia).

Besides, what a help was he really? He was looking for boats when normally he was supposed to give away what he knew about Red. Which really seems to be nothing. Surprise, surprise. Oh man, how stupid can it get, really?

I'm getting more and more frustrated about the show.don't know why,maybe the keen2 storyline.It's utterly out of control. The ugly ratings should be a wake up call to TPTB. This Tom thing doesn't work well.

Same here... And it's not just the Keen2 storyline, it's all the things they miss, things that we learned in season one and that are forgotten about... Forgetting to put on her burn mark or Tom's gunshot wounds or his tattoos. It's no fun to watch anymore because I see all of that missing or not working out with what we've learned earlier.

As far as Tom asking her to go away with him on a boat, that's what he wants. To be with Liz. But I am pretty sure he already knows that Liz will never accept. Liz wouldn't even run away with him when they were happily married. But he can't help but offer. He's been asking her to run away with him from the beginning so I don't really see that as ooc or the writers having amnesia.

You know what? I really wouldn't be surprised to see exactly that in the season finale. We'll talk about it again, I'm sure of that... The way Liz is behaving she'd do everything we would think her not to do and that definitely is #1 on my what to expect list Since he brought that damn boat up tbh.

Red was just shot and is recovering. Can she give him some time to breath, please? I know she wants answers but really... Liz so gets on my nerves. She's behaving like a teenager, not like a PROFILER, that has finished university with a degree in psychology.

But I agree, he has to tell her the truth. Okay, she might have told more than he ever wanted to but still. I guess he is realizing that he's losing her as well (I just think he doesn't know who he's losing her to). I would love to see his reaction when he finds out how close she is with Tom again. Maybe Red really will leave at the end of the season (I would do exactly that because she declared she'd find the truth herself, shall she go for it).

With all the information we have I'm starting to re-think my theories and the memories of the fire and how it could all fit. But I can't really come up with something new. I still think it's been Red who hit Lizzie in that closet (because of the ring that guy wore and on insisting that her name was Elizabeth). So maybe her mother betrayed even her daughter And that's why she died in shame. I still don't think that Red did kill her but I have no idea who could have been the one doing it either. And if it happened that way I don't know how her father fits in all of it.

I'm still wondering if Red is aware of Connolly being in business with the Cabal. Cooper knows now. Maybe he's searching help from Red?

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by ChellyChelle (View Post) I LOVED Samar in this episode. Mozhan is a wonderful actress! She had me completely fooled and I was yelling at my screen NOOOOO don't make her a traitor!! When she pulled up to Red and Dembe at the house, I was so relieved. And Red's comment to her He has an obvious thing for her. I don't blame him... she's damn good.

I was doing the exact same thing! I was yelling at my tv too! I am so glad she made that all up.

Originally Posted by keroppi (View Post) Red really needs to start telling Liz what he knows about her parents and her life. That's all there is to it. Until Red starts being straight with Liz and telling her what he knows I just don't see their relationship improving. I feel bad about it, but at the same time Red can only blame himself. And since they are choosing to keep the audience in the dark as well as Liz it's hard to say his silence is justified. I think I would be a lot more sympathetic towards Red and his plight to keep everything from Liz if I knew why he had to be so secretive.

First off I am glad that you did like the episode. At least somebody did. Second, I couldn't agree more with you on Red and Liz. Red needs to stop giving Liz these half answers. Either tell her everything or tell her nothing at all. Untiil he does that I can't see their relationship getting better either sadly.

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) Red was just shot and is recovering. Can she give him some time to breath, please? I know she wants answers but really... Liz so gets on my nerves. She's behaving like a teenager, not like a PROFILER, that has finished university with a degree in psychology.

She is clearly not thinking about that. All she wants is answers. She has been waiting for answers every since Red entered her life and she basically hasn't gotten a lot of those so far. She is getting on my nerves a little bit too. I was frustrated with her this episode. I know she wants answers but she not going to find them with Tom.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

I think Samar having betrayed everybody would have been my death when I saw this episode... Her still being loyal to Red and the task force made my day because everything else was going down the chaos road.

First off I am glad that you did like the episode. At least somebody did. Second, I couldn't agree more with you on Red and Liz. Red needs to stop giving Liz these half answers. Either tell her everything or tell her nothing at all. Untiil he does that I can't see their relationship getting better either sadly.

It would be cool if the audience would know about his reason for keeping her out of it... What if she killed any of them? What if she is responsible for the fire or something like that? I'm not sure if that even is possible after everything we've seen from her memories but who knows Or her mother or father really were bad and wanted to hurt her? Or Red really being her father (although I don't know why she shouldn't know then).
It really sucks that he doesn't give her anything! She always has to get him to a point where he can't deny her answers, some at least. He didn't even tell her about Tom which even more sucks. Shouldn't he know better by now?

She is clearly not thinking about that. All she wants is answers. She has been waiting for answers every since Red entered her life and she basically hasn't gotten a lot of those so far. She is getting on my nerves a little bit too. I was frustrated with her this episode. I know she wants answers but she not going to find them with Tom.

It's possible that she's desperate but therefore hurt and betray everybody around her isn't the answer and really not the behavior I did expect from her. Sadly..

Btw, I'm really wondering what position Jasper had... He was on the tv so he must have been somebody important. Any guesses?

[One Thing Remains]

I don't understand how she is betraying everyone around her. What is she doing that you feel is a betrayal?

[ChellyChelle]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) You know what? I really wouldn't be surprised to see exactly that in the season finale. We'll talk about it again, I'm sure of that... The way Liz is behaving she'd do everything we would think her not to do and that definitely is #1 on my what to expect list Since he brought that damn boat up tbh.

I am thinking this is where they are going too. I can totally see her getting fed up with everything and getting on a boat with Tom. I would be so disappointed in the writers if they did this.

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) With all the information we have I'm starting to re-think my theories and the memories of the fire and how it could all fit. But I can't really come up with something new. I still think it's been Red who hit Lizzie in that closet (because of the ring that guy wore and on insisting that her name was Elizabeth). So maybe her mother betrayed even her daughter And that's why she died in shame. I still don't think that Red did kill her but I have no idea who could have been the one doing it either. And if it happened that way I don't know how her father fits in all of it.

See, part of me has always thought that Red not telling her about her bio parent/s is about them not being good people. It wouldn't surprise me if we find out her mother betrayed her and left her for dead. Or something similar to that. The pain on Red's face when she was asking how he knew her mother and if he loved her... I sense something really awful, really earth-shattering had to have happened for him to stay mute. And the only thing would be if her mother threatened her life. And if she's still a threat to her life.

I'm just so confused on the show... I hope we get more answers in the next 2 episodes to help unclog my mind.

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) It would be cool if the audience would know about his reason for keeping her out of it... What if she killed any of them? What if she is responsible for the fire or something like that? I'm not sure if that even is possible after everything we've seen from her memories but who knows Or her mother or father really were bad and wanted to hurt her? Or Red really being her father (although I don't know why she shouldn't know then). It really sucks that he doesn't give her anything! She always has to get him to a point where he can't deny her answers, some at least. He didn't even tell her about Tom which even more sucks. Shouldn't he know better by now?

So you think Liz could be responsible for the fire? I can't see a 4 year old killing their parents but it could be a possibilty that the fire started because of something that Liz did. Or maybe like you said, Liz's parents were trying to hurt her and Red came in and saved her? I don't know there are so many possibilities.

I don't how Jasper fits in to everything. He is a member of the Cabal. That's all I got.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

I am thinking this is where they are going too. I can totally see her getting fed up with everything and getting on a boat with Tom. I would be so disappointed in the writers if they did this.

Chelly, I really thought I was nuts to assume that happening but gladly I'm not on my own... Although I have another theory as well which I sadly can't discuss here at this point.

See, part of me has always thought that Red not telling her about her bio parent/s is about them not being good people. It wouldn't surprise me if we find out her mother betrayed her and left her for dead. Or something similar to that. The pain on Red's face when she was asking how he knew her mother and if he loved her... I sense something really awful, really earth-shattering had to have happened for him to stay mute. And the only thing would be if her mother threatened her life. And if she's still a threat to her life.

Same here I as well expect something that has to do with her, that her mothers behavior somehow would have threatened her life and he doesn't want to tell her because he doesn't want to destroy that memory, those good thoughts she has on her parents, for her.
And admitting that he as well was badly hurt I guess is something that he doesn't want to admit as well... And I still believe he got the burn marks from that fire, maybe even by trying to save her, who knows. He wouldn't want pity from her.

Miranda, I think a 4 year old can by accident cause a fire... It's a possibility. I never assumed Lizzie did it on purpose because no 4 year old would do something like that on purpose.

I don't understand how she is betraying everyone around her. What is she doing that you feel is a betrayal?

First of all she's a federal agent and she's now again working with and seeing a murderer (Tom murdered three people, two in cold blood). Now tell me how that isn't a betrayal on the task force, on the FBI, on herself even because I'm sure she at some point started that job because she wanted to help catch those people. Especially after everything they let go through with her...
Besides of that she's betraying Red. Only 5 or 6 days ago she told him that Tom isn't in her life. He's pretty much in her life now.

And she's keeping it a secret from all of them.

[ChellyChelle]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) First of all she's a federal agent and she's now again working with and seeing a murderer (Tom murdered three people, two in cold blood). Now tell me how that isn't a betrayal on the task force, on the FBI, on herself even because I'm sure she at some point started that job because she wanted to help catch those people. Especially after everything they let go through with her... Besides of that she's betraying Red. Only 5 or 6 days ago she told him that Tom isn't in her life. He's pretty much in her life now. And she's keeping it a secret from all of them.

I'm with you on all of this. I guess Liz forgets that Tom is partly responsible for Meera's death and Cooper's near death. He gave the names of the task force. Has he made amends or shown remorse for that in any way? The show hasn't addressed it at all.

They all have some blood on their hands so I'm not saying anyone on the show is innocent. But Tom is a murderer. Maybe he's reformed, I don't know. But I haven't seen enough to make me happy about his relationship with Liz progressing.

[sunshinedan]

I'm with you on all of this. I guess Liz forgets that Tom is partly responsible for Meera's death and Cooper's near death. He gave the names of the task force. Has he made amends or shown remorse for that in any way? The show hasn't addressed it at all. They all have some blood on their hands so I'm not saying anyone on the show is innocent. But Tom is a murderer. Maybe he's reformed, I don't know. But I haven't seen enough to make me happy about his relationship with Liz progressing.

Exactly! That's why I thought they had serious amnesia when I was watching the episode.
Hey girl ,this guy tried to kill you and your colleagues.WTF are you running to him and seeking comfort? Tptb think the audience have amnesia as they have
Tom probably killed lots of people off screen than we thought he did.

The redemption progress of Tom is always hard for me to understand.It's rushed and oversimplified.The last minute he assertively refused to come with Red and help Liz off the harbermaster case, then he showed up in court the next minute.Honestly I don't know this guy anymore.He's much OOC than anyone on the show.Tom was an intricate character on S1,now he's been ruined by the writers.
So is the rebuilding relationship of Keen2.I can't invest myeself to this dysfunctional,toxic,"romantic" relationship.They won't work as a couple anymore, imo.They haven't had a serious conversation to what happened the past two years. He never apologized sincerely to what he's done to her. I looked over people's comments on twitter the other day.Someone said that Tom held captive 4 months earased what he did to Liz. That's what they get from the writers.
I feel like tptb just shove the s**t to our mouths to swallow it.

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by ChellyChelle (View Post) I guess Liz forgets that Tom is partly responsible for Meera's death and Cooper's near death. He gave the names of the task force. Has he made amends or shown remorse for that in any way?

Does Liz even know that Tom gave the names to Berlin? I don't think she does. Otherwise she would have never let him back into her life right? As far as I know she only knows that Tom was hired by Red. Turned his back on him and started working for Berlin. I don't think she knows to what extent Tom has been doing the things he has been doing.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Originally Posted by Miranda (View Post) Does Liz even know that Tom gave the names to Berlin? I don't think she does. Otherwise she would have never let him back into her life right? As far as I know she only knows that Tom was hired by Red. Turned his back on him and started working for Berlin. I don't think she knows to what extent Tom has been doing the things he has been doing.

Liz does know it because she was the one who figured out who Berlin got the names from and where Tom got them from

I'm with you on all of this. I guess Liz forgets that Tom is partly responsible for Meera's death and Cooper's near death. He gave the names of the task force. Has he made amends or shown remorse for that in any way? The show hasn't addressed it at all. They all have some blood on their hands so I'm not saying anyone on the show is innocent. But Tom is a murderer. Maybe he's reformed, I don't know. But I haven't seen enough to make me happy about his relationship with Liz progressing.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more... It's just frustrating. Nobody is innocent on the show but it somehow feel so different for me with Tom. About Red we know he's a criminal and he never tried to appear otherwise. I'm sure he knows what he's done and how wrong all of it is. He's aware of it. I don't get that feeling with Tom.

Someone said that Tom held captive 4 months earased what he did to Liz. That's what they get from the writers.

If that really is the case it again makes me feel right about the quality of the show lately... That's something I definitely can't live with and that I don't enjoy.