[i never learn]

the episode was pretty crappy, i agree. clip shows, in general, are the worst. the only time i enjoy such events are when they are through ship montages... and those last a good 30 seconds to a minute. nothing more.

i, quite frankly, am annoyed at the lack of tom this episode. i would have preferred they do a one shot with him and put us in his world and really study the character versus reveal, pow, he was one of red's employees all along. and, seriously, red still isn't taking responsibility for what this cost everyone? dude, get real! it's your fault. like, can't the writers just admit he's flawed versus trying to make him a martyr? so lame. even dembe's like, get over yourself! ahh!

tom's definitely going to go down for liz though. one way or another, he's out. the writing's on the wall, sadly. it's a shame though because ryan is so thrilling to watch. and i literally hated his character last year. towards the end, he easily became the 'why to watch' factor for me and without him, i just don't care.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

There were some good parts in the episode but that was just about maybe five minutes. The rest really isn't worth watching again because we saw all of it in the first season or the first half of season two. I was so dissappointed, you can't imagine.

I agree about the talk Dembe and Red had. Dembe even started it. He wants Red to tell Lizzie the truth and you could see how that struck Red. We don't know what had happened in the past but it must have been bad. Red's reaction was so untypical. Did you watch him swollow when he told Dembe that he doesn't know how he could tell her about it? That he doesn't think that he can do that. Why???? So many questions are in my head. I'm wondering if it's because of how it would affect her or their relationship or him or all of it? I can't see a good outcome here for the both of them although I somehow got the feeling Dembe does. And as long as Dembe has somehow hope I have hope as well...

But I'm so pissed that Red in the first place put Tom into Lizzie's life. I'm sure he did that to keep her on watch (not sure if it at this time was more than taking care of a person that he needed because of the Fulcrum). But he became dangerous when he betrayed Red and that's why he wanted to get rid of him through what Zamani... I recall Red asking Zamani if Tom is dead. So yeah, he wanted him dead because he became a danger to him and Lizzie, to his way to the Fulcrum. Damn it... I guess he never saw it coming that he would care so much for her and the other way around. This will all go to end really badly for their relationship again. I'm really joyful already!
And yes, if that really was the only reason for putting Tom into her life, for keeping her 'safe' because she was the key to the Fulcrum, Red really has pissed me here for the first time!

I wasn't sad about the lack of Tom because I simply can't stand his character... I really don't care at all about him

But why would you think that was it with Tom? I can see him being around for much longer because I really think he loves Liz. I don't think he'll go down for her although I have no clue who will go down for that murder instead or how they'd get her out of it

[One Thing Remains]

At first I was really disappointed in this ep because it just seemed like a rehash ep that just showed things that happened previously. But towards the end it got good and gave us some great info so it made it worth it.

We now know that Red hired Tom originally to make contact with Liz and get to know her, but wasn't supposed to become emotionally attached. I think it was awesome that both Red and the Major knew that he had become attached.

We know that Tom ended up working for Berlin because Berlin paid the Major double what Red did.

I also loved learning how Tom ended up working for both Red and Berlin. It was nice to get some background on him. His name, his life prior to becoming a spy, and how he got recruited.

I also thought it was interesting that even though Tom worked for Red and Berlin he really worked for the Major and was contracted out.

I don't know why but I love the fact that Tom really did care about Liz and love her even though she was a job to him. I am such a Tom fan. I just love his character so much

We also know that Dembe knows everything and I LOVED LOVED LOVED that Dembe told Red it was time to tell Liz everything.

I also like that they are keeping the changed Cooper in character and he lied for Liz to the judge.

I have to admit that I was really surprised that Liz gave the judge so much information. I hope he's not working for any of Red's enemies or personally knows anyone who is involved with Reddingon or the Fulcrum. That was a huge risk giving out all that info.

I think this might be the most answers we have ever gotten in an episode. And for once the answers didn't create more questions. Well at least for me they didn't.

I hope we continue to get answers as the season goes on. Not necessarily all the answers, but it would be nice to get some more before the season ends.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

have to admit that I was really surprised that Liz gave the judge so much information. I hope he's not working for any of Red's enemies or personally knows anyone who is involved with Reddingon or the Fulcrum. That was a huge risk giving out all that info.

That's exactly what I fear! I really can see him working for the alliance, maybe even being part of it? Who knows... That was such a stupid move from Lizzie! She might have endangered herself and especially Red after she had told him that she cared about him. Well done, Lizzie. That again proofed to me how stupid the writing of Lizzie is. She doesn't tell anybody on the task force about it, not even Aram, and now she sits with a person she's never met before and tells him right away? Come on???

We now know that Red hired Tom originally to make contact with Liz and get to know her, but wasn't supposed to become emotionally attached. I think it was awesome that both Red and the Major knew that he had become attached.

Maybe Tom was only supposed to survaillance Lizzie and when he started to get attached he went further and got to know her, ended up with her. We don't know what exactly it meant for Tom not getting attached. Was he hired by Red to really become her boyfriend or just watch her from a far (which I somehow doubt since Tom said that he was chosen to do that job, that he got it out of many 'applicants'). I really don't know and until we don't know anything further I guess the wild speculations are going to come.

I'm glad we now know that Dembe knows about everything. We were debating about it before and I'm really happy to know that Red isn't the only one knowing everything.

And Tom's name being Jacob... I'm wondering if Red knew that and what Red had told Lizzie in 1x18, that he knew rarely more than Lizzie about him, hmm... this one is so stretchy as well. Maybe he really didn't since he hired the Major and he chose the person for the job. I'm wondering when Red found out or how that Tom wasn't working for him anymore but for Berlin.

Cooper somehow is the one who might suffer lying in court... Since they found the bullet I think Lizzie did not only bring herself into a really bad situation but Cooper as well He might not have to lose anything right now but it's bad nevertheless.

Do you think Lizzie was trying to protect Tom somehow in the episode?

[One Thing Remains]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) Do you think Lizzie was trying to protect Tom somehow in the episode?

I actually think that she was. That was the impression I got, but I thought maybe I was reading too much into it.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Originally Posted by keroppi (View Post) I actually think that she was. That was the impression I got, but I thought maybe I was reading too much into it.

I'm really not sure what to think either... That's why I'm asking. I know that it was advertised that she would protect him but I didn't get too much the impression she did. She wouldn't tell the judge that Tom killed the Harbormaster because he would be wondering why Tom was there. She had held him captive there and this is a crime as well. I think she was as well protecting herself.

[One Thing Remains]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) I'm really not sure what to think either... That's why I'm asking. I know that it was advertised that she would protect him but I didn't get too much the impression she did. She wouldn't tell the judge that Tom killed the Harbormaster because he would be wondering why Tom was there. She had held him captive there and this is a crime as well. I think she was as well protecting herself.

yes that's true. It probably did have more to do with protecting herself than protecting Tom.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Originally Posted by keroppi (View Post) yes that's true. It probably did have more to do with protecting herself than protecting Tom.

But really, it was hard to tell.

[Miranda]

I don't know what to think about the epsiode either. The only two good things about this episode imo.

- We did found out Tom's real name though! It's Jacob Phelps. I just can't recall that he told Liz that we she held him captive on the boat but they showed a clip of him saying that so I am happy we know his real name now and so he worked for the Major before the started working for Red. So basically Red hired him to be in Liz her life. Why would he do that? I mean Red must have known this would turn out bad.

- The conversation between Red and Dembe. Wow that was.. Red totally did not see that coming. I loved how Dembe expressed his opinion and he is so right! Red needs to tell Liz about Tom cause if he doesn't do that and she will find out on her own then everyhting that happened last episode will mean nothing anymore and they will be back to square one when their relationship was in a bad place.


I just don't get why Liz would protect Tom after all he did to her. She needs to tell the Judge that Tom is still alive and that he killed the Harbormaster. Okay then she would also have to say that she
held him hostage on that ship for 4 months but that is far less bad as killing somebody.

As far as the rest goes I don't get why Liz told that Judge so much and all the flashbacks to the blacklisters why? Let's just hope that they next episode will leave us speechless.

We didn't see Aram this episode! and there was such a lack of showing Ressler and Samar.

[ChellyChelle]

Oh Lizzie.......

This episode has some really great, yet really awful moments and I still don't know how I feel about everything.

I try to be down for Liz and attach on to the fact that she's naïve in some aspects but smart in others. But this episode just proved to me that the writers want her to be an idiot. How could she tell the judge everything?? It was SO out of character for how far she's come with the Task Force and with Red and I was just shaking my head the whole time. If you know the Fulcrum contains details on very powerful people and you know that Red has friends and enemies in every aspect of everyday life, why would you tell everything to a judge you know nothing about?

It did seem to me that she was protecting Tom a bit. And now that we know Tom's backstory that he was a troubled youth who got taken in by the Major because it was his only option, I get the feeling the writers are going to experiment with these two admitting they still have feelings for each other. And I am NOT here for it. At all.

I hated that there was very little Ressler, Aram or Samar once again.
But I loved Dembe's conversation with Red at the end. And yes, Red literally choked up when he told Dembe he didn't know how to tell her the truth. There was a lot hidden in that scene and I need to re-watch. I'm trying to figure out what it all means. Like Kris said, if Dembe feels the truth will be a good thing for Liz to hear, I have hope for Red/Liz.

Ugh. And Liz putting Cooper on the line is not okay with me. I know she didn't mean to do it, but still. She screwed over a lot of people by her admissions and it's going to bite her in the butt.

[i never learn]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) But why would you think that was it with Tom? I can see him being around for much longer because I really think he loves Liz. I don't think he'll go down for her although I have no clue who will go down for that murder instead or how they'd get her out of it

i totally agree about tom truly loving liz. and i feel like liz reciprocates his feelings, but i just don't believe the writers care about rebuilding their relationship. i also feel like the writers are focusing on the ship murder too much for one of them not to go down for it. plus, how much of the audience hates tom? feels like the writers are trying to salvage the idiocy of berlin by sacrificing tom, but making it more dramatic than it needs to be.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

I try to be down for Liz and attach on to the fact that she's naïve in some aspects but smart in others. But this episode just proved to me that the writers want her to be an idiot. How could she tell the judge everything?? It was SO out of character for how far she's come with the Task Force and with Red and I was just shaking my head the whole time. If you know the Fulcrum contains details on very powerful people and you know that Red has friends and enemies in every aspect of everyday life, why would you tell everything to a judge you know nothing about?

I couldn't have said it any better! It really made Lizzie an idiot! I'm sure this will backfire... On Red and her and who knows, maybe even the task force because she never mentioned that the task force had no clue about the Fulcrum.

It did seem to me that she was protecting Tom a bit. And now that we know Tom's backstory that he was a troubled youth who got taken in by the Major because it was his only option, I get the feeling the writers are going to experiment with these two admitting they still have feelings for each other. And I am NOT here for it. At all.

Yeah, I agree that she was protecting him a bit but in the first place I think she did it to protect herself... Would she have admitted that Tom was still alive it would have made the story of Samuel so much more believable.
But yes, I don't want them rekindle... I really will be so disappointed if they do. I'm okay with a proper goodbye because I think that's what both need. But nothing else. This not only would make the Keenler shippers mad but also the Red/Lizzie ones because I bet Red wouldn't be okay with that at all and it would really damage their relationship. I don't think it's an option to bring the two of them back together.

You know what I had to think about? When Liz told Tom that it is different for him. That he knows where he comes from and who his parents are. That he knows who he is. And now in hindsight she couldn't be more wrong about it. It's the same for him as it is for her.

Lizzie really would have been out of it if this Samuel guy wouldn't have said something about taking a bullet Now it's Cooper and Lizzie that might take the fall... Not just her anymore.

It did seem to me that she was protecting Tom a bit. And now that we know Tom's backstory that he was a troubled youth who got taken in by the Major because it was his only option, I get the feeling the writers are going to experiment with these two admitting they still have feelings for each other. And I am NOT here for it. At all.

I would think it really sad if Ryan would have to leave the show... But right now I can't see how they'd keep him either. I really don't like Tom, I would even say I hate him. But he has brought action and mystery to the show as well and I somehow can't imagine the show without him.

[Miranda]

I agree Kris this whole thing is going to backfire right back at Liz and I am afraid maybe even on the task force. I can't believe that she told the judge all those things, you would think she would now better than to jeopardize the task force like that.

As far as Liz telling Tom that he knows where he comes from. At that moment she really thought he was genuine and that he had parents who loved him and that he had a good childhood but yeah now we know that she was probably very off with that.

I love to hate Tom. I don't want to see him go. I love him as a character and I believe there is some much more to him but I just don't want him back with Liz. Tgey won't make eachother and come on they can't be in a relationship again cause there is no bas for a relationship, that's just all gone because of what Tom did.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

I really think she has not clue how dangerous that organization is that's after Red... So yeah, it might have been for her protection but if he'd been honest with her from the beginning she would never have told anything about it to that judge! Damn it!

As far as Liz telling Tom that he knows where he comes from. At that moment she really thought he was genuine and that he had parents who loved him and that he had a good childhood but yeah now we know that she was probably very off with that.

I'm really wondering what Tom might have thought about it when she had told him.

I really want Tom to stick around but I guess no matter which way he does he'll effect relationships in a really negative way and I'm not ready for this to happen...

[Miranda]

I am scared for what the organization will do to Red if this all came out.

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) I'm really wondering what Tom might have thought about it when she had told him. I really want Tom to stick around but I guess no matter which way he does he'll effect relationships in a really negative way and I'm not ready for this to happen...

Maybe he wanted to tell her at that moment but he just didn't to keep his cover up idk.

For sure he is going to effect relationships in a bad way and I'm especially afraid for Red and Liz's relationship. What if she find out that Tom was hired by Red? She is going to be devastated.