[sunshinedan]

How did Tom know Mr. Kaplan?They haven't crossed paths with each other before.Liz didn't even question him how he knew Mr. Kaplan.
It seems I'm the only one who's not really into this ep.I'm feeling it is losing touch. TPTB just want to creat shock value and only concern to drop the bombshell instead of writing good SL.

[L i N d $ @ y]

Originally Posted by i never learn (View Post) i'm definitely sure that tom is in love with liz. although, him murdering that dude on the boat makes me want to run away crying because i was hoping for new!leaf tom. and that's just not the case. but red calling the boat/tom filth was as annoying. i mean, i believe red only helped tom because liz truly does love him, but red is just as dirty... if not more! so, for red to turn around and be the one to comfort liz is gross imo.

I wasn't sure why Tom had to kill that man but for me, it won't be believable if he suddenly turns good because he was stuck in a boat for 4 mos so that was completely in-character of him to do. I do think he loves Liz until now but it's just hard for me to grasp where his loyalties lie as it is obvious now it is with Red all along and not Berlin. If Liz finds out about this, it will make her mad once again. I get that both Tom & Red loves her but in the end, they're still keeping things from her.

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) Maybe they had the deal that Red would help him escape after they got Berlin?! Because Tom referred only to the four months Liz had him. Why not refer to the time of their marriage?!

I'm also thinking this, that he made a deal with Red to be a spy for Berlin. That whole thing between them in the S1 finale was all an act though and Red let Liz "kill" Tom because he knows she wasn't going to do it. So that explains why Red knew that Tom is alive.

Originally Posted by sunshinedan (View Post) How did Tom know Mr. Kaplan?They haven't crossed paths with each other before.Liz didn't even question him how he knew Mr. Kaplan. It seems I'm the only one who's not really into this ep.I'm feeling it is losing touch. TPTB just want to creat shock value and only concern to drop the bombshell instead of writing good SL.

I still do enjoy the show, it's a lot better than some of the other shows in the other networks, I think. I think I'm a little iffy with this whole Tom/Red business though. With Berlin dead, there really was no reason for Tom to stick around. But to have him strike a deal with Red means that he will still be around. So that's how they will keep the character on the show. What I don't like is that this is another lie that will hurt Liz...again.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

You know what I think? Tom's last words to Red weren't just supposed to be about him being held captive and having maybe a deal with Red. I somehow assume this goes way deeper. Tom told Liz that her father was still alive. I still think that Red is Lizzie's dad and that Tom is well aware about it. Maybe that's the reason Red made a deal with him in the first place. Tom not telling Liz about it and therefore Red helping him escape? Because I'm sure that Lizzie not just kept Tom captive because she wanted to know about Berlin but about what he knows about her father as well... So since we assume that Red knew from the beginning that Liz didn't kill Tom and her telling Red what Tom last told her before he "died" made Red reach out for Tom. Just speculation of course...

The question is: Why doesn't Red want her to know that he is her father?

[i never learn]

Originally Posted by L i N d $ @ y (View Post) I wasn't sure why Tom had to kill that man but for me, it won't be believable if he suddenly turns good because he was stuck in a boat for 4 mos so that was completely in-character of him to do. I do think he loves Liz until now but it's just hard for me to grasp where his loyalties lie as it is obvious now it is with Red all along and not Berlin. If Liz finds out about this, it will make her mad once again. I get that both Tom & Red loves her but in the end, they're still keeping things from her.

i don't think it would be as shocking as for him not to kill that dude because, even if it was the in-character thing to do, being held prisoner can also alter someone's reaction to circumstance. i would have just preferred the writers try and attempt to carry on some sort of charade versus blatantly saying, tom's the bad guy and liz feels like a fool for loving him. BECAUSE, YES, RED'S ~LOVE IS JUST AS IMPURE, but liz continues to give into red... which makes her seem more foolish than with tom imo.

anyway, here's a new theory: red is tom's father!

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Originally Posted by i never learn (View Post) anyway, here's a new theory: red is tom's father!

You won't believe it but that idea crossed my mind as well

You think her loving Red makes her even more foolish than loving Tom? I think it's a tie because Tom, everything he did, her whole life, was a lie... With Red it isn't but he's a criminal and he hurt her a lot as well. And I guess we can't go with the 'I never lied to you' anymore as well Sadly.
But still I think she can trust Red. It's so stupid of myself but I as well trust Red when it comes to Lizzie... He might not always not hurt her but he'll always protect her although at first it won't seem that way.

[i never learn]

i think it's worse with red because liz is conscience of who red is and what he's capable of. i feel like the writers are trying to exploit liz's vulnerability though, so in my mind, i'd rather liz breakdown with ressler or someone who is morally centered like she is versus hearing red say, there's nothing wrong with you. because, i mean, how would red know what liz has really lost? and that ending just makes it worse, really.

don't get me wrong, i love red, but he's like the last person i'd turn to and expect the kind of humanity i'd need in such a low moment.

[sunshinedan]

Originally Posted by L i N d $ @ y (View Post) I still do enjoy the show, it's a lot better than some of the other shows in the other networks, I think. I think I'm a little iffy with this whole Tom/Red business though. With Berlin dead, there really was no reason for Tom to stick around. But to have him strike a deal with Red means that he will still be around. So that's how they will keep the character on the show. What I don't like is that this is another lie that will hurt Liz...again.

Yeah.That's why TPTB make him conncect with Red.Some plot twists of this season let me feel unnatural and forced.

i think it's worse with red because liz is conscience of who red is and what he's capable of. i feel like the writers are trying to exploit liz's vulnerability though, so in my mind, i'd rather liz breakdown with ressler or someone who is morally centered like she is versus hearing red say, there's nothing wrong with you. because, i mean, how would red know what liz has really lost? and that ending just makes it worse, really. don't get me wrong, i love red, but he's like the last person i'd turn to and expect the kind of humanity i'd need in such a low moment.

Ditto.Red and Tom,both men manipulate her,is it pathetic there is no one in her life deserve to be trusted? She need someone who's decent and honest ,she can confide in. So yes,she better go to Ressler instead of Red.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

TBH, if I'd have been in her place I would have turned to Red as well... I don't know what that'd say about me but still. To me he feels to be the person for it to be. I think Red has been to such a point in his life and he might not have had anyone to turn to and because no matter what Red did, he knows a great deal about life and love. I think he's in the same kind of misery with Lizzie. He might understand loving someone and being powerless although he might know it's wrong and scary and makes you do things that another person would understand.

I feel like Ressler would have never understood her. He wouldn't have been the right person, he's too much into good and evil. There's not enough in between for him.

[Lauren Helen Graham]

TBH, if I'd have been in her place I would have turned to Red as well... I don't know what that'd say about me but still. To me he feels to be the person for it to be. I think Red has been to such a point in his life and he might not have had anyone to turn to and because no matter what Red did, he knows a great deal about life and love. I think he's in the same kind of misery with Lizzie. He might understand loving someone and being powerless although he might know it's wrong and scary and makes you do things that another person would understand.

I feel like Ressler would have never understood her. He wouldn't have been the right person, he's too much into good and evil. There's not enough in between for him.

[Nekoshoujo]

All and all a great mid-season finale and fitting end to the Berlin storyline. I think they did a great job with Berlin's character. They stepped back a bit from the legend aspect of him this season and brought him back down to earth in that he is at his core a very brutal and emotional man. I think that worked better than trying to make him this unparallelled villain which almost always backfires into cartoon territory on shows like this.

Should have figured Fitch was involved in some pretty serious geo-political stuff. Although have we heard his official title before this episode? Anyway there was nice touch here with the chain of command and the FBI being kept in check when going against a man with his own power like Fitch. Really brings some believability to the whole show when we see why the FBI would want to work with Red in the first place. Situations like this one when you want to go around law and protocol.

And that power is important to. Getting caught up in cases of the week and the spy games aspect of the show it's easy to forget that so much of this show is about power, influence, and the people who have those things. Why Red is allowed to live the way he does, how he operates he has a keen idea of the balance of that lifestyle and that great conversation he has with Fitch feeds right into that idea. I always go back to the FBI's reaction to Red. Here he is at the top of their most wanted list when the people they answer to are even worse. And you start to see why Red would create the blacklist- yes obviously for his own gain- but it's such an important goal to pursue. I think that's why Cooper and Ressler have come around they way they have. Sure they're catching bad guys, but Red gives them a reason to look in these directions they might not be allowed to otherwise.

Nice call back to the Stewmaker. Kinda a blacklister of the week who keeps living on (honestly that was one of my favorites from season one also). It was great to finally get some pay off via an explanation for his involvement with Berlin's daughter.

So Liz and Tom. Tom and Liz. Man there was some twisted epic love story vibes going on here. Even Red just went ahead and spit it out. He sounded like a father warning a daughter that her boyfriend would bring her trouble. I also completely agree that Liz can't let him go. They have too many emotions tied up with one another. I really do think Tom loves her. No in the let's get married and adopt a baby way. But in a "I'm a killer but you're not and I want to protect that aspect of you" which I'm sorry but it brings out all the shippy feels in me and probably contributed to my love for this episode.

All I could think was - Ressler sounded like a jealous boyfriend watching Tom and then that's what Tom said :] I love when this show doesn't take itself to seriously.

I disagree with those saying Tom should have left with the Berlin storyline over. I think it's important to have someone who can be both an ally and an enemy. He's like TBL's Krycek. I'm biased because I like his character but as the show moves forward I know keeping a character like him around is going to make the show more dynamic.

Liz is slick with her lies lately.

oh Tom, surprisingly Liz is exactly your kind of girl, isn't she? Love them!

Okay, I feel like Berlin's story adds up, I just had a different image of when this was all going on. Pretty interesting though. I liked watching this all add up.

Russian political terrorism seems... timely.

Had to know the big box would be back. That is just way too expensive of a set piece to just disappear.

Cooper is such a company man at first glance but he's become incredibly loyal to the task force and it's cause.

Tom has some serious moves. Just swinging up and around like that...

I echo the puzzlement at Tom knowing Mr.Kaplan, seems he knew more about what Liz and Red were up to than he let on.

When Red said "We need to talk... now" Ressler gets that look on your face you get when your buddy gets called to the principal's office. haha, I loved that little moment.

And for that ending...
Definitely some Syndicate TXF vibes here with the mention of 2017, and the writers gotta have confidence throwing that year out there, but reassuring that the show has a plan and that there are clearly more dangerous men than Fitch out there. I jumped when the bomb went off. And of course it has to explode right at that critical moment. Just because something is predictable doesn't mean it's incapable of having a gottcha moment.

As for Berlin. No way that Red would have let him live. That's just not good for business.

So Tom and Red working together actually explains a lot. But I'm reserving judgement until we get an understanding of what they have going on together.


Yeah I really liked it. Probably my favorite episode the season, hopefully a nice taste of things to come in 2B.

[Ooops]

Hello!
Usually I'm just a lurker but I have a clarification question to ask you all!

Is Zoe (Berlins daughter) also Naomi's daughter? The details of this were a bit fuzzy to me...




I'm also curious as to what Tom and Red's relationship is. I have no doubt Red would have killed him in last years finale. So I find it interesting that now he is paying him off and letting him be...

[i never learn]

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) I think he's in the same kind of misery with Lizzie.

i feel like he's the mastermind of her misery lately.

[L i N d $ @ y]

Originally Posted by i never learn (View Post) anyway, here's a new theory: red is tom's father!

I've been reading some theories about this which would suck if Liz turns out to be Red's daughter.

Originally Posted by Lauren Helen Graham (View Post) You think her loving Red makes her even more foolish than loving Tom? I think it's a tie because Tom, everything he did, her whole life, was a lie... With Red it isn't but he's a criminal and he hurt her a lot as well. And I guess we can't go with the 'I never lied to you' anymore as well Sadly. But still I think she can trust Red. It's so stupid of myself but I as well trust Red when it comes to Lizzie... He might not always not hurt her but he'll always protect her although at first it won't seem that way.

She can trust Red but probably not entirely because he is hiding some stuff from her. Although all meant well, right now Liz doesn't know why and how Red knows so much about her. It's still a big question mark.

Originally Posted by Nekoshoujo (View Post) I disagree with those saying Tom should have left with the Berlin storyline over. I think it's important to have someone who can be both an ally and an enemy. He's like TBL's Krycek. I'm biased because I like his character but as the show moves forward I know keeping a character like him around is going to make the show more dynamic.

I just feel like if Berlin is dead, where does he go to? What happens from here on in? He may still be a part of the show but I'm afraid his character may be recurring since he's basically on the loose. Having that SL with Red makes it more interesting (for me) because now it makes sense that they have struck a deal since the beginning and that would also make us see more of Tom than not have him in an ep at all.

Originally Posted by Ooops (View Post) Hello! Usually I'm just a lurker but I have a clarification question to ask you all! Is Zoe (Berlins daughter) also Naomi's daughter? The details of this were a bit fuzzy to me...

Welcome to the board! Naomi's daughter? Did the show say that Berlin & Naomi had a relationship before?

[Lauren Helen Graham]

Welcome Ooops!

I don't think that Naomi is Zoe's mother. The daughter of Naomi and Red seems to be this girl called 'Jennifer'...

Oh yes, Lindsay, I as well think Lizzie can't trust Red 100% but not just he kept secrets from her. She did the same and he still trusts her.

I don't believe or feel that Red is the mastermind of Lizzie's misery lately. How could he? She wanted to take care of Tom. And couldn't do it in the end which IMO isn't Red's fault. Tom wanted to kill Lizzie and now it's Red who is the bad guy when it comes to this? I don't think so. I'm sure there's a reason why Red did what he did. I still believe that he wouldn't harm Lizzie, not on purpose and Tom did just that.

I'm really curious how Tom will return at some point After the end of the latest episode.

[Nekoshoujo]

@Ooops - Welcome! From what we know so far Zoe is not Naomi's daughter and Naomi doesn't have any connection to Berlin. But who knows what surprises lay ahead.

I don't believe or feel that Red is the mastermind of Lizzie's misery lately. How could he?

Yeah agree if anything it's the opposite.