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Old 04-13-2018, 09:37 AM
  #16
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I don’t think we will see eye to eye — but I will raise the point 1st ep, Catherine being a rape survivor and knowing the trauma there in set a plan in motion to do it to Mary and cause that pain and suffering with no remorse — and while yes she did it to save Francis - it was just as much if not more to protect herself and her position as queen/queen mother —— which was her goal in most actions —-

Also season 2 - I think her lack of action against Mary was more due to her distraction what with the poison, the Claude situation, plus with Nostradamus out of the picture she didn’t have anyone to plot with on screen.....

Catherine is a ‘survivor’ and will do what she needs to protect herself at all times...

Mary is no paragon of virtue, but saying Catherine did it all for her sons rings false for me....

I wonder a lot how things would have been different if Nostradamus and Catherine hadn’t set in motion what they did trying to keep Mary and Francis apart... domino effect... butterfly effect whatever......
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:01 PM
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No. We most certainly will never agree on this. I'm not trying to say Catherine is blameless or that Mary is. My point is simply that they are all to blame. They all made mistakes. Equally.

Her goal in most actions was always her children. Yes she wanted to protect her position and herself, but in her mind that was the same thing. Her children needed her in order to survive. And that is true if you look at what actually happened. Whenever they didn't listen to her things got screwed up.

And I disagree that she had no remorse for what she did to Mary. At the end of episode one Nosty tells Catherine she must continue to sacrifice....she hadn't sacrificed anything in that episode...except Mary. So she saw it as a sacrifice. A bad thing. And it is not the same as killing her...which was my point that that is a line she wouldn't cross...but Mary would. Mary was so righteous about not killing unless necessary...but she did the same more than once. Which was my point and not that Catherine did nothing wrong. Mary is a hypocrite.

And she was still able to go after Mary in season 2 regardless of any poison. In fact Narcisse offered to go after her and Catherine shut him down under no uncertain terms because she had come to "care for her".

She does not ONLY protect herself....she protects her family too and that included Mary in every episode post 1.07. [They clearly changed Catherine's character after the pilot as many pilots do and usually you have to disregard anything that happens in a pilot in any show when it comes to character dynamics]

If it rings false for you....give me even one example of something bad she did that did not help her children in some way.

I wonder what would have happened if Mary had simply done what Catberine asked and gone back to Scotland before marrying Francis...or if she'd honestly done anything she'd told her to do. Honestly, if you look at things Mary's downfall began the moment she killed Narcisse's son. So in essence she died because she didn't listen to Catherine. So did Francis. Don't go out without guards....2 seconds later....goes out without guards and dies.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:44 PM
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Obviously, we'll never agree about everything. But I think we can all agree that none of them (Catherine, Mary or Francis) were blameless.

I, for one, never agreed with Catherine's "the end justifies the means" philosophy. She did a lot of terrible things. Period. However, I do believe that she wasn't just motivated by survival and self-preservation. She was also motivated by a fierce love and loyalty for her children (and Mary). Her family. That never rang false for me. I also think there were many moments when Mary was completely self-righteous and hypocritical - especially in regards to the taking of a human life.

As much as I love Catherine, I don't necessarily believe that everything would have been better if everyone had just listened to her. I respect that Mary and Francis at least tried to be different kind of rulers and hold on to some of their innocence. They certainly did some crazy, stupid things to be together and to save each other, but I love that, too! At the end of the day, Francis made a choice to escape to spend a moment alone with the woman he loves, and then he made the choice to lay down his life for her. Call it "fate" or a self-fulfilling prophecy, but for me, that's beautiful.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:25 AM
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That's mostly what i was trying to say Keri. Except for the part about them listening to Catherine. I cam point to a ton of very specific times when Catherine wa completely right (biggest example Narcisse's son) and them not listening made it worse. But the biggest point aI was trying to make was tbey all did their part. None are blameless. Catherine is always right....she just goes about fixing the problem the wrong way. Where Mary is usually wrong and goes about fixing it the right way...if that makes sense. That's why they make a good team. They balance each other's short comings.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:18 PM
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Catherine is always right....she just goes about fixing the problem the wrong way. Where Mary is usually wrong and goes about fixing it the right way...if that makes sense. That's why they make a good team. They balance each other's short comings.
Well put. I agree with that. They do make an awesome team.

With killing Narcisse's son... Catherine's way of fixing the problem was wrong IMO. She went straight to murder as the solution. Killing Lord Voland would have been the easy way out. I know they didn't have much time to find another way to deal with Eduard Narcisse (and I don't know what that "other way" could have been), but they should have at least tried. Mary is right to insist that killing should always be the last resort. Then after Lord Voland and his household were killed, Mary went and made it a million times worse by distributing her own "justice."
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:48 PM
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Not killing him proved to be the wrong approach. Because Mary didn't kill him...a whole family died. It wasn't the first option in this case it was the only option.
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:06 PM
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Could they not have imprisoned and put him in solitary confinement for treason against the crown (using-asking them to murder for him) and that would have allowed Velond to take his confession to the king and Vatican.... Narcisse contained.... both of them... just saying.... it’s an alternative option....
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:20 PM
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Not really. Narcisse would have been pissed at that as well and most likely would have gotten him out. Catherine explained why they couldn't take their land as well...the same thing would have happened had they imprissoned him. And tgen he'd be alive and probably would have aided Narcisse in want for revenge, making him an even bigger problem.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:41 PM
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Well, if simply imprisoning them wouldn't work (assuming they would both survive and get out), then maybe they could have found some other way to blackmail, manipulate or pressure Eduard to back off. Again, I know they didn't have a lot of time, but I just can't agree that murder was only option. I have to believe that Mary and Catherine working TOGETHER could have figured it out.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:24 PM
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So Velond going to the Vatican wouldn’t have had any impact.... with the King &the Vatican denouncing and stripping his lands and power.... wouldn’t have had an impact? I’m just curious... this was just my thought....
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:47 PM
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Good point. Imprisoning Eduard seems like it could have worked. But again, they didn't want to anger the other nobles...
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innocent_Brie (View Post)
So Velond going to the Vatican wouldn’t have had any impact.... with the King &the Vatican denouncing and stripping his lands and power.... wouldn’t have had an impact? I’m just curious... this was just my thought....
As I said. Catherine explained this in the episode. The other nobles would have rioted and torn them off the throne. His case never would have never even reached the Vatican. Without proof, the nobles would have destroyed them.
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Old 04-19-2018, 10:48 PM
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You may be right. I know the nobles were extremely powerful. But, so are Mary and Catherine. I still have faith that, working together, Matherine could have figured out a way to deal with Eduard without the other nobles knowing, or somehow appease them after the fact. If the nobles needed proof, then they could find a way to give them proof. All we're saying is that they should have at least discussed other courses of action, or investigated to see if there was anything that they could have used against Eduard.
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:31 AM
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Francis being sick would probably be why he can't get her pregnant. She should have married Charles.

How does Elizabeth not care that her hair is a mess.

Francis including Bash when sharing the bad news with his brothers and sister.

Oh Francis is so amazing, making sure everyone is safe and well after his death. Btu then again, he's been like that all his life. And he's the one still strong enough to comfort Mary.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:39 PM
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I'm glad you got to rewatch this one, Rita.
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