Reign - ♔King & Queen♕ {F♥M} #327: "I knew...Ever since I caught your eye, watching me dance at your sister's wedding. Feathers falling from nowhere." - Page 2

leah19 · 02-20-2016, 06:34 AM

good and you

**kerbear28** · 02-20-2016, 08:21 AM

Good morning everyone!

I hope you are having a good weekend so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkElfLass (View Post)

Hi, Keri. My problem with this is that the writers had Mary telling Conde that she loved him several times, and the way Adelaide played it made Mary seem quite sincere. Even when Francis had recovered from his illness, she still considered herself committed to Conde and their love. So, no, I have not forgiven Mary, and if the writers wanted me to get behind her, they should have written her that way. I NEEDED to see...on-screen...the moment Mary realized that she truly loved Francis and had never stopped. I NEEDED her to make a sincere apology to him for the pain SHE had caused and not cop-out with "I'm sorry for the pain we caused each other." Exactly what pain did Francis cause her during S2? Oh, yeah, his love for her was too painful for her to bear.

So, the minute she trusted herself again and could give herself to someone again, she chose a double-dealing cousin with a claim to the throne of France instead of the husband who had been nothing but patient, kind and loving? I am so glad that Catherine told Mary off in S2E18. Frankly, she deserved a far worse beat down. The fact that the writers didn't feel it was necessary to show Mary's genuine regret (and an attempt to repair the damage they were all too willing to show) cast a shadow over Mary's return to Francis and her declaration that she always loved him in IMO (S2E22). And as I said, while the rushed Frary reconciliation scenes they gave us in S3 were nice, they did not redeem Mary 100% IMO or soften my attitude toward her. Had TPTB chosen not to include the Conde mess with Mary's rape s/l, I'm sure I would have been more sympathetic to the character. But the story they chose to tell sucked.

Emory

ETA: Thanks for the lovely gifset.

Hey Emory.

Well, I completely agree that the story they chose to tell sucked.

I'm just trying to pull the good that I can from it. I'll just make a few more points:

Looking back, the fact that Mary told Conde that she loved him doesn't bother me as much as it once did. Heck, she told Bash she loved him, too. She's easily confused by her feelings, to say the least. The show has made it quite clear that what she felt for those men was more gratitude (and loyalty born from guilt she felt for leading them to the situations they were in). Whatever she felt for them, she loved Francis more. Her love for Francis was stronger, deeper. When it was time for her to make a choice, she chose to betray Conde and stab him in the gut to save Francis' life (and his rule). When Francis died in 3x04, she told Delphine to bring him back even if the price for his life was her own. She was willing to die for him. I know that the show could have done a much better job of proving that Mary loved Francis and always did. But, in the end, I don't doubt it. It would have been nice to see Mary fully come to this realization. I think we did see it, it was just a little too subtle.

For example, I think you can see Mary waking up in this scene in 2x21...

I agree that we should have seen a more genuine and straight-forward apology from Mary.

We ALL deserved it. What we got in 2x22 was Mary simply telling Francis that she was willing to wait years if that's how long it took for him to forgive her. At least she acknowledged that she NEEDED to be forgiven. I accept that Mary truly did feel sorrow and regret for what she did. Perhaps Mary deserved a worse "beat down" from Francis, Catherine, and EVERYONE. But at the end of the day, mercy and forgiveness is not something you can "earn." It's a freely-given gift, like love. We have to accept what the show has given us on-screen, and use our imaginations to fill in the blanks. Personally, I like to imagine that in the two months or so between the Season 2 finale and the premiere of Season 3, Mary was working hard to rebuild the trust that she had broken and prove her devotion to Francis. Maybe that's not enough for many fans, but I'm allowing it to be enough for me.

So...I still love Mary. Because of the girl I fell in love with in Season 1, and the queen she still can become. Because Francis loved her.

leah19 · 02-20-2016, 08:27 AM

that scene keri it was to much

DarkElfLass · 02-20-2016, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerbear28 (View Post)

Looking back, the fact that Mary told Conde that she loved him doesn't bother me as much as it once did. Heck, she told Bash she loved him, too. She's easily confused by her feelings, to say the least. The show has made it quite clear that what she felt for those men was more gratitude (and loyalty born from guilt she felt for leading them to the situations they were in). Whatever she felt for them, she loved Francis more. Her love for Francis was stronger, deeper. When it was time for her to make a choice, she chose to betray Conde and stab him in the gut to save Francis' life (and his rule).

Hey, Keri.

I suppose I can see your point here. Perhaps, it is as you say that she can’t separate loyalty and gratitude from real love, but I find that rather strange. And not to belabor my point, but I remain at a loss as to how someone can consistently be confused by her feelings when it comes to men other than her OTL. But—that’s just me.

Quote:

I think we did see it, it was just a little too subtle. For example, I think you can see Mary waking up in this scene in 2x21...

Thank you for using this scene to illustrate your point, because honestly, I couldn’t figure out what Mary was trying to say here. And if this was her turning point then, yes, it could have been made a whole lot clearer with different word choices.

Quote:

What we got in 2x22 was Mary simply telling Francis that she was willing to wait years if that's how long it took for him to forgive her. At least she acknowledged that she NEEDED to be forgiven.

I actually liked this part of that scene—see, I’m not totally grumpy about Mary.

Quote:

But at the end of the day, mercy and forgiveness is not something you can "earn." It's a freely-given gift, like love.

True that. I simply haven’t gotten there yet in Mary’s case, but your argument is persuasive so, I’ll consider it.

Quote:

We have to accept what the show has given us on-screen, and use our imaginations to fill in the blanks.

Agreed.

Quote:

I still love Mary. Because of the girl I fell in love with in Season 1, and the queen she still can become. Because Francis loved her.

I guess this is the main sticking point for me. I never fell in love with Mary during S1. I liked her well enough that not even the hiccup with Bash bothered me because it was clear why she did what she did. Unfortunately, the landscape was much murkier with Conde and less acceptable (by me). And at the end of the day I simply love Francis more. The fact that he forgave her and continued to love her with all his heart doesn’t tarnish him IMO. I accept that he’s just a better person than I am when it comes to pain and betrayal.

Thanks for a lively exchange.

Emory

**kerbear28** · 02-20-2016, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkElfLass (View Post)

Thanks for a lively exchange.

You're welcome, and Thank YOU!

I think that scene at the end 2x21 is when Mary made her FINAL choice.

When Francis told her that he would have surrendered to Conde and sacrificed EVERYTHING if that meant she was safe...it finally dawned on her how incredible Francis' love for her was, and that she desperately needed him to LIVE. For me, this is the moment she realized the magnitude of her betrayal, and that she had to do everything she could to make things right. Her words may not have said enough, but her actions spoke louder.

I will defend Francis' choice to forgive Mary and continue to love her until my dying breath.

I'm glad it didn't tarnish his character for you. He's definitely a better person than ALL of us.

His mercy and compassion only made him stronger, not weaker. Plus...the man knew he was dying. Do you expect him to live out his remaining days dwelling on pain and bitterness? He wanted to be with the woman he loves.

enchantedstarlight · 02-20-2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerbear28 (View Post)

Francis is applauding the music and then he just stops in his tracks when he sees Mary taking off her shoes and starting to dance.

Oh, poor Francois...you tried valiantly to resist the pull, but you failed miserably.

Here's the parallel from our beautiful title

I always knew that we would be wed, ever since I came back.

X

I know. Poor boy was fighting a losing battle with the pull.

That parallel gifset is everything.

As a side note, I love Catherine's "We're overrun by Scots" comment during this scene.

leah19 · 02-20-2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerbear28 (View Post)

You're welcome, and Thank YOU!

I think that scene at the end 2x21 is when Mary made her FINAL choice.

When Francis told her that he would have surrendered to Conde and sacrificed EVERYTHING if that meant she was safe...it finally dawned on her how incredible Francis' love for her was, and that she desperately needed him to LIVE. For me, this is the moment she realized the magnitude of her betrayal, and that she had to do everything she could to make things right. Her words may not have said enough, but her actions spoke louder.

I will defend Francis' choice to forgive Mary and continue to love her until my dying breath.

I'm glad it didn't tarnish his character for you. He's definitely a better person than ALL of us.

His mercy and compassion only made him stronger, not weaker. Plus...the man knew he was dying. Do you expect him to live out his remaining days dwelling on pain and bitterness? He wanted to be with the woman he loves.

me too keri always

ParkDundee · 02-20-2016, 02:32 PM

I think Francis was always much stronger emotionally than Mary, who was quite frail until she finally grew up at the end of S2. Francis appears to be more vulnerable, but he's just honest enough with himself to admit it. In a way, it was an unfair match. Francis is almost idealized, not many are as strong as he is (and almost certainly not the real Francis).

The lack of a grand apology (or begging for forgiveness) has really bothered me too. But Francis caused Mary much pain in the first half on S2 by his being secretive. It was for Mary's own good (he thought, incorrectly imo). But she felt rejected and betrayed and told him so. And yet her remained secretive. And remember he told her she should leave France. That was pretty harsh for someone as dependent on him as she was.

Sometimes it feels like the writers are just playing us and they know that S2 will never really be reconciled.

leah19 · 02-20-2016, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkDundee (View Post)

I think Francis was always much stronger emotionally than Mary, who was quite frail until she finally grew up at the end of S2. Francis appears to be more vulnerable, but he's just honest enough with himself to admit it. In a way, it was an unfair match. Francis is almost idealized, not many are as strong as he is (and almost certainly not the real Francis).

The lack of a grand apology (or begging for forgiveness) has really bothered me too. But Francis caused Mary much pain in the first half on S2 by his being secretive. It was for Mary's own good (he thought, incorrectly imo). But she felt rejected and betrayed and told him so. And yet her remained secretive. And remember he told her she should leave France. That was pretty harsh for someone as dependent on him as she was.

Sometimes it feels like the writers are just playing us and they know that S2 will never really be reconciled.

I have to agree with.that

**kerbear28** · 02-20-2016, 04:25 PM

Stephen, I could quote your entire post, too, but I'll just say that I agree as well.

I don't know how to say it better.

ParkDundee · 02-20-2016, 06:39 PM

Thanks Leah and Keri. That means a lot.

As you know, it took me a long time to get from selfish, childish, hurtful Mary to sympathetic, inexperienced, abandoned Mary in S2. At least now I can enjoy watching her again in S3.

**kerbear28** · 02-20-2016, 10:27 PM

^ And that's the point. Getting to a place where you can enjoy watching Mary on the show again...even root for her. It's not easy, but I think it's worth it.

Here's a sweet little gif set that I'll leave with you before I head to bed:

X

De Medici Queen · 02-21-2016, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkDundee (View Post)

I think Francis was always much stronger emotionally than Mary, who was quite frail until she finally grew up at the end of S2. Francis appears to be more vulnerable, but he's just honest enough with himself to admit it. In a way, it was an unfair match. Francis is almost idealized, not many are as strong as he is (and almost certainly not the real Francis).

The lack of a grand apology (or begging for forgiveness) has really bothered me too. But Francis caused Mary much pain in the first half on S2 by his being secretive. It was for Mary's own good (he thought, incorrectly imo). But she felt rejected and betrayed and told him so. And yet her remained secretive. And remember he told her she should leave France. That was pretty harsh for someone as dependent on him as she was.

Sometimes it feels like the writers are just playing us and they know that S2 will never really be reconciled.

Aw I'm aware of this, all of this... that it was also his fault but while doing all this in S2 Francis always loved her and not even for a second he had doubts about his love to her while for a moment in S2 I stopped thinking Mary loves him, not as much as he loves her

He's not innocent and is to blame too for her decisions in S2 but I can't blame him because he never stopped truly loving Mary while she had her doubts

I'd compare it with the question of some people "How can you not forgive Mary for sleeping with Conde but forgive Francis for sleeping with that girl Narcisse brought to court in S2?" I simply can, because Francis had no feelings for that girl, yes, they had sex but that's all while Mary with Conde.. it just was wrong and she was confused but it felt like it was more than just sex

leah19 · 02-21-2016, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Medici Queen (View Post)

Aw I'm aware of this, all of this... that it was also his fault but while doing all this in S2 Francis always loved her and not even for a second he had doubts about his love to her while for a moment in S2 I stopped thinking Mary loves him, not as much as he loves her

He's not innocent and is to blame too for her decisions in S2 but I can't blame him because he never stopped truly loving Mary while she had her doubts

I'd compare it with the question of some people "How can you not forgive Mary for sleeping with Conde but forgive Francis for sleeping with that girl Narcisse brought to court in S2?" I simply can, because Francis had no feelings for that girl, yes, they had sex but that's all while Mary with Conde.. it just was wrong and she was confused but it felt like it was more than just sex

i have to agree issi it is the same with me

heather8615 · 02-21-2016, 08:30 AM

Hello my dear friends!!!

Its been a while! I have to apologize for my rather abrupt disappearance. I was going through some difficult issues in my personal life and I just needed to unplug from everything, to give myself a chance to heal. I am super behind on S3, but I am really looking forward to catching up with all of you!!

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Fan Forum > TV Shows - Past > Reign > ♔King & Queen♕ {F♥M} #327: "I knew...Ever since I caught your eye, watching me dance at your sister's wedding. Feathers falling from nowhere."